unloved 400

[davidoloan]

Why is the 365 GT4 2+2, 400, 412 series so unloved?

This link shows a good one (34000 miles) that is going to be broken because it needs an expensive exhaust. Maybe Fest could save it.

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/breaking2.asp?page=23



It was designed by Leonardo Fioravanti who designed the blue chip designs : daytona, 308, 365 BB. Though subjective, I think these were the most beautiful of Ferrari. People talk of Pininfarina with reverence, but different men put their stamp on Pininfarina at different times.

Though not in the same league as the daytona / 308 visually, there is something about the lines of the lines of the 400. It has great proportions and individuality, and is subtle and though of its time it aged well during its long production life, and I think afterwards.

What I can't figure out (being too young) is whether or not it was regarded as a good or great car when new. Some magazines regard it with scorn today. The only period article I have got my hands on so far is from "Car" when the 365 GT4 2+2 was new in which the car got a rave write up; its described as an exhilarating GT.

So, is the car good or bad, is it pretty or ugly. Why is it unloved. Is it the Fiat/Ferrari association, is it the wedge shape in an era of bland smoothies, is it a real classic ferrari?

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

What a shame to ruin a nice car! Sacrilegious. Many years ago when they were new, I thought, "If only someday I could have a 400i." If I see the right one, I'm in.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[Sean Bramhall]

What a shame to ruin a nice car! Sacrilegious. Many years ago when they were new, I thought, "If only someday I could have a 400i." If I see the right one, I'm in.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

looks a little heather than the 355 in the garage

[ricar116]

David,
I currently own a 365 GT/4 2+2. Fell in love with the body style wilst an exchange student in London back in 87'. That was the "Executive " car of choice. Bought mine two years ago and am undergoing a complete restoration. I say keep the cars a secret they are beautiful dependable and absolutely fly. They are wonderful on the highway sound great and are true touring cars. The six tail lights, six webers, and 5 speeds seem to make the 365/GT4 2+2 desireable or maybe being the 365 series seems to make it more "vintage" don't know. Don't care...I only wish I could be drving it now! The exhaust may be the stated reason, but an engine overhaul is as much as the current market will bare for this example. One day you will tell a Ferrari story.....and they salvaged it because of the exhaust... My extremely biased two cents worth
Rick

[fest]

needs to be rescued???

LET ME AT IT!!!

Seems like many of these cars
are meeting a similar fate...

the exhaust may not be the whole story
may just have been the proverbial 'straw'
(that broke the camel's back)
or in the case of a 400i
broke the Bank

I think the RUST probably had a lot to do with it
with that much showing, it might not be worth saving

very pretty colors though
I still would consider saving it
if it were on my side of the pond

as for the philisophical posit
on the relative merits of the 400 series:
you asked for it!

I attribute this to snobbery, basically
(then AND now)

when they were new,
the self-styled elite snubbed the use of the Automatic
(a Chevy Transmission!, in a Ferrari, no less...the HORROR!!!)
the legions of 'experts' that followed
now feel obligated to perpetuate the myth

any one researching Ferraris will undoubtely encounter this bias
and the temptation is to heed the words of 'wisdom' therin
as to the relative merits of the 400s
(or lack thereof)
without ever trying the car for themselves
and instictively snub the 'lowly' 400
with an air of contrived superiority

this percieved lack of value
translates into the marketplace
people are told they should not want them
and so they dont

now the snobs might cite the 'FIAT' influence
and attribute that to the phenomenon

funny, the 512 BBi is also a FIAT Ferrari
from the exact same era
you don't hear any one bad mouthing the BBi
in fact they are now well into the 6 figure range

the car sold well when it was new
but the 'experts' tell us that
it was just another manifestation of the 'Ferrari' madness
that swept the globe during those years
and people would buy ANY thing with the Ferrari Emblem

funny, this didn't seem to apply to the Mondial Coupe
which NEVER sold very well, even at the height of the craze

the 400s were never intended for the US market
so it is not surprising that it is not releavant here
it never was intended to be relevant here

the truly rich in Europe at that time
didn't give a hoot what the hype was
they DID care about being kidnapped, however
which is why elegant, but reserved styling
in subdued tones was in (at least with them)

it was very succesful in what it was
and for the intended customer base:
a top of the line car in limited numbers
for those accustomed to the best
(and with the wherewithal to procure it)

so where does that leave us:

the 400s are the last of the line of the TRUE Ferraris
i.e. Front Engine V12 GT with the emphasis on GRAND
with the most fully evolved version of that V12

that the market does not appreciate them does not matter to ME
what does matter to me is that I can actually afford one
who cares if the snobs don't like it

AKB

[ricar116]

Amen Brother!

[kare]

Every time I see these claims how a Ferrari is "too far gone" or "not worth what it would take" I can't help wondering what is so terribly wrong with these cars. I know dozens of people who have gone through the trouble of fixing rust problems on their common cars and had new exhaust systems made from scratch and they don't whine about it. Heh, I'm fixing a rotten Lancia Beta at the time; not exactly a good business opportunity - but I like the car very much.

I think the true reason for parting out such a nice car is the fact that you can get nice parts out of a nice car. Then you get loadsamoney when you sell the parts to people who are trying to fix a car that is only a "driver". Best wishes, Kare

[PETER GABRIEL]

I said a while back that $75,000, for a GTE will seem like peanuts a few years from now, and current price trends seem to reflect that. I think the cars like 400, and simliar are real steals. Some have engines similiar to the Daytona. Better than a stock. If you have any spare change, I bet you could get a double, or a triple in a few years. They might not look like Lusso, a SWB, or a Daytona, but they have an understated elegance all their own.. I think they are beautiful. As one wag put it many years ago, " A woman, is just a woman, but a car is an automobile".

Peter Gabriel

63 GTL 4419

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

Peter,

Who was this wag? I need to meet him....

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[davidoloan]

Thanks for you thoughts,

Not being around when these cars were new I had subconsciously bought into the negativity in the motoring press, though I always admired the lines. Going to find some original articles, perhaps a Brooklands Compilation book. Anybody know of any articles on the net?

Interestingly, there always seem to be late 80’s 412i’s available in mint tiny mileage condition. This is the same with 911’s, Aston V8, Ferrari 328. Always 1987 -1990. Suspect is has to do with the boom and crash. Speculators car stored when the values crashed in relation to the purchase price?

It does seem to present a rare opportunity to buy a classic Ferrari in almost new condition. It would be much harder to find its predecessor, the 365GTC/4 in such condition, though I read Michael Bayer managed to pull it off, even though production numbers were only 10% of the 365 GT4 2+2, 400, 412 series. But he must have a knack for this, having pulled it off with his 330 as well.

Fest & Rick: Thanks for your replies. Am I right in assuming that the 412i is the same in character to the 365 GT4 2+2 and 400. Disadvantages of the 412i to me are that the older interiors are nicer, and the front bumper assembly never seems to line up perfectly on the 412i, though I am sure that is just a visual perception exaggerated by the strong angles in the lines. I am not sure about the other developments other than the increase in power. Also, how does the engine sound with fuel injection? I have never heard an injected 400, though I have heard the modern 456 etc, which are very different to the older cars.

Top Condition, less than 10000 mile 412i’s seem to sell at around $40000, or twice the price of a good 400i. Considering running costs are so high on these cars, if one wanted to use the car regularly, do you think it might be sensible to pay more for a 412i assuming its been kept properly. Yale’s posts about costs make me think this way.

Fest, I’m interested in your comments on the auto. Over here only about 10% of mainstream cars are auto (the opposite of the US I guess), and I have only owned one auto. An old E32 7 Series about 4 years ago. I was surprised to enjoy the gearbox and it certainly suited the type of car, which I still drove enthusiastically. However on a Ferrari, though accepting it’s not a sports car would the manual not be more ideal, if only for boy racer activity. Am I a snob?

Starting to get interested in possibly buying one. The lines are even similar in their restraint to the 90’s Ghibli.

Have a look at this one on eBay. Seller is David too, a coincidence.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-FER ... dZViewItem

[davidoloan]

complete 330 gt being dismantled by the same people as above
http://www.eurospares.co.uk/breaking2.asp?page=44

[DBS]

Anyone know if they have started dismantling this 330?

Chris

[DBS]

Anyone know if they have started dismantling this 330?

Chris

[fest]

Comments on Auto Tranny

this subject came up earlier
and I DID admit that the Auto Tranny
is rather lame in this application
as the ratios are just plain not suited
to the V12 Torque profile

the Auto was originally designed for a
big ole American V8
that makes all it's torque
at the 2500 - 5000 RPM range
and shift points are mapped accordingly

the V12 does not even start to wake up
until after 3500 RPMs
and really starts to 'come on' at 5000 and above
the Auto Tranny shifts way to soon
effecively keeping the Engine out of it's ideal power band

you can adjust the Tranny to shift later
(also the subject of an earlier thread)
but there is only so much you can do
(and keep the car driveable)

I find myself banging the Auto down manually
which is not really a good thing for the tranny
that's why you see so many cars
needing tranny service @ around 75K miles
(usually in a GM they last at least 120)

the ratios are not that great, either
as first is just too low
to be very useable
(too big a gap between 1st and 2nd)
I find myself wanting more ratios
when really 'getting into it'
(maybe I will try a 4-speed Auto when I build my 'project' car?)

bottom line is,
yes, the 5-speed version is VASTLY superior
on this, the market agrees
a clean 5-speed example commands at least
a 10% premium, if not 25%

I think the main reason the 400s are so maligned
is that the Auto, combined with the heavy weight
makes this car rather a 'dog'
(especially by Ferrari standards)

as for my personal tastes:
I have a slight disbability
so, while I CAN shift a Manual Tranny
it just is not that much fun for me
(not to mention the spectre of a missed shift)
so my choices are rather limited at this point

I will make do with a 400iA
until I can score the 456 GTA
when the market stabilizes
(and my income jusitifies it)

as for the 412: GO FOR IT
this car has many improvements
over the earlier versions:
as the 400 line was such a slow seller
(in relaitive terms)
generally, improvements took a long time to be incorporated
of which the 412 has many
not least of which is the bigger output engine

A 412 with 5-speed
would be an excellent choice IMHO

AKB

[Art S.]

Something is not adding up. The 330 appears to be complete and not a dog, just like the 400. Both are RHD models which should command a premium in England. Just seems strange to me. I picture Tom S. trying to move these cars as whole units rather than parts. Are these guys legit?

Regards,

Art S.