Off Topic: Barrett Jackson

[Stephanm]

Colin Comer writes a column in the Sports Car Market magazine and owns a large showroom dealing muscle cars. He regularly takes out half and full page ads in SCM. He wrote an article in the newest issue titled Russian Roulette with a full clip regarding the muscle car market. He says, " You will never see a Ferrari 275 GTB/4 that started life as a green 4 cly with a vinyl top and column shift automatic. But you might see a Hemi Cuda that way".
He sounds like Mike Sheehan offering very candid advise regarding people paying "real car" money for clones. This holds a lot of weight coming from him who could gain more money by keeping his mouth shut. I feel that he only wants to represent real cars with docs and heritage(whatever this means in muscle car world) and he does not want buyers to pay one penny more that what a "fakey-do" is worth.
I can totally understand muscle car values going up, but not anywhere over 6 digits except for Shelby's and Corvettes.
Would you buy anything that has a "shaker hood" and is painted "sassy grass green"
I thought that Scottsdale 2007 would show that buyers want to diversify making the values of classic Ferraris and other truly rare and exotic cars where they belong--much much higher.

308's can stay right where they belong price wise, no more than $30,000!!!

[Stephanm]

As if B-J isn't annoying enough, there website takes forever to load!!

[Art S.]

Tom,
Actually, Sports Car Market's editor wrote a quite negative piece on the whole muscle car phenomenon. Apparently he was evicted from B-J (according to a thread on Ferrarichat - started by Yale if i recall).

Regards,

Art S

[T308]

Tom,
Actually, Sports Car Market's editor wrote a quite negative piece on the whole muscle car phenomenon. Apparently he was evicted from B-J (according to a thread on Ferrarichat - started by Yale if i recall).

Regards,

Art S

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/978

I think this was the one...

T308

[whturner]

Hi Art:

I have not seen Keith Martins comments - but my view is, it is not the cars themselves - they are what they are - If they are buying them for nostalgia go for it. But people who think a car with some unique assortment of accessories and options is a rare car should look up the word rare. If you total up the possible permutations/combinations of accessories/options there are more "rare" possibilities than cars produced.

These big bucks are really buying options and accessories, but not rare cars.

We have rare cars.

CHeers
Warren[/i]

[Art S.]

Warren,

I agree with you but, the numbers culture for muscle cars has been growing for many years. In the mind of a muscle car collector, say one focusing on cudas, only cudas are important and therefore a rare permutation is the holy grail. Although this isn't my thing, I don't have a problem with it.

I watched a few minutes of BJ - I found it repulsive and turned it off.

Regards,

Art S.

[ricar116]

A.J. Foyts 512BBI went for 75K not a bad buy don't know about mechanicals though . Wonder if BJ will pay for the dents in the bonnet when pushed off stage.

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

The auction ran up to new heights selling that Manson era, school bus rust heap from Von Dutch. It has bullet holes in it because it was such a sore sight here in Calabasas for many years.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[T308]

The auction ran up to new heights selling that Manson era, school bus rust heap from Von Dutch. It has bullet holes in it because it was such a sore sight here in Calabasas for many years.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

I bet that was bought back as well. Didn't it go for $30k or so? His friggin' paint box went for more than that at the last auction. Maybe people will stop wearing those trucker hats now...

T308

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

Yes, $30,000 for something that belongs at the base of a tall cliff.....

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[Stephanm]

Hemi Cuda is not a rare car as was said earlier. I think that it is a shame that '57 Chevy's are not as sought after as they are probably more rare and way more of an American Icon. What makes a Cuda so famous?

[sam231]

Maybe it's time for Ford, Chevrolet, Chrysler, etc. to start their own "Classiche" departments to cash in :>)....Can you imagine the resto guy trying to get a certificate of authenticity, and how much would he be charged?

[william]

All in good time. The car market shifts in cycles. People who own American Muscle should enjoy their time. European cars time will come around again. People will want something different then a Cuda in a few years. Look at the desoto did very well at BJ this year.

[Art S.]

Sam,

You can still get the original build sheets for your car from Pontiac.

Probobly from the others as well.

Regards,

Art S.

[330 America]

Lots of good points, but let me offer a few interesting comments:

(1) Ian - I'm sorry mate (as someone who have lived in the UK 4 years and done business in Europe for 15 additional years) but European car fraud/greed at auctions is as prevelent as the US. My 330 America is an example of some of the greatest fraud I have ever seen -- compliments of Simon Kidston the supposed "expert" car guy at Bonham's Auction House. Bonhams has a famous Ferrari auction in Gstaad, Switzerland every Fall and they supposedly have original cars that are promoted with much hype (similar to Coys, etc.) I visited Switzerland a week before the 2003 auction as was not allowed to view the car prior to the auction. I was never given a Condition Report, nor offered one. After the bidding was over and I won the car (telephone bid back at my Texas office), the bidding assistant tells me the car has been in a frontal accident. The result is 3 years of painful restoration. I got very good Swiss/German lawyers involved but the disclaimer language in the bidding agreements are WORSE in Europe (at least Bonhams) because they not only exempt the auction house from wrong in the event the car is incorrectly described, but they require that you waive all recourse rights against the Seller too! So in other words, the auction house can be working with the Seller to represent fraudulant cars and never be prosecuted for it!! At least at BJ, RM, Kruse, and similar auctions, while the auction house wants to be exempted from liability for misrepresentation they do not restrict suing the Seller.

2) Warren - regarding the word "rare" I would agree with your points. I am amused every year at the supposed "rare" 1963-1967 Corvette 427 cars that show up. If they (and Shelby's, Z28's, etc.) are so rare, whey are there 10-20 of them every year at BJ? There were over 5,000 original Shelby's built and this is supposed to be rare? An exceptional international auction might have 2-3 Ferrari Lusso's, a couple 212's, a 375MM, 1963 GTO, etc. -- this is rare.

AUCTIONS: GREED PLAYGROUND FOR THE UNINITIATED
The problem is that the same uneducated American's that think NASCAR is motor racing also think a 1967 Shelby is worth $200,000. Barrett Jackson has done for auctions what NASCAR has done to motor racing. It has substituted cheap, media production entertainment for an honest event targeting real motorsport enthusiasts. They charge $500 to register as a bidder and had 5,000 registered bidders -- that's $2.5MM before a single car crosses the auction block. Now, I know Westworld costs money -- but not near $1MM. On top of this, BJ gets fees from Speed Channel for broadcasting rights, and then 18% combined fees on the $40MM-$60MM in cars that they sell. Not a bad payday 3-4 times per year. It is in Craig Jackson's interests to create hype and turn the car market into the Barnum & Bailey circus because as long as 60 year old businessmen gobble up whiskey, cigars, and an opportunity to impress their 30 year old girlfriend on camera -- the show must go on.

The rest of us back on planet earth can take solice in providing community for each other via meeting places like Tom's site! Craig Jackson is just excelling at marketing -- but he's hurting the long-term stability of the classic car market with fabricating so many new "collectible" models of American muscle cars. Since when did a DeSoto suddenly reach Ferrari Daytona price status? Next year, Craig will tell us that 1970 Winnebago's are the next "hot" collectible. The Von Dutch bus was a crap heap and I can't believe some idiot is going to put that in his collection. It should be used as a artificial coastal reef for fish.