365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

[TOMKIZER]

According to the Apen / Roush book (Ferrari Tuning Tips and Maintenance Techniques), the cylinder head nut torques for a 365 GT 2+2 are the same as for a 330 GT 2+2. Since the bolts and nuts are identical for these two engines, I would expect the torques to be the same, although I cannot find a source to verify it. For torques and specs for my 365 GT 2+2, except where logic tells me otherwise, I have always used the (330 GT 2+2 Coupe Pininfarina) Service Manual with Latest Revisions, published by Ferrari.
Tom Kizer

[A.D.]

Hi Tom

Thank you for your input.

Any idea where i could buy a copy of the (330 GT 2+2 Coupe Pininfarina) Service Manual with Latest Revisions, published by Ferrari?

Best Regards

A.D.

[TOMKIZER]

Hi A.D,

If you haven't registered at www.ferrariowners.com, then do that first. It's the Ferrari owner's site. After registering, go to the upper menu bar across the top of the HOME page, click on CARS, then on the drop-down menu, click on CLASSICHE, then on the right, click on HISTORIC ARCHIVE, then click on CAR MANUALS. Choose 330 GT 2+2 in the box, and then download the "entire manual". If you don't have a 365 GT 2+2 manual, you can get it there too.

Failing that, you can contact Kerry Chesbro on this forum. I'm sure he will give you access to download the manual, chapter-by-chapter, from his site.

Another book for Ferrari V12 do-it-yourselfers is Ferrari Tuning Tips and Maintenance Techniques by John R. Apen and Gerald L. Roush. It's often available on eBay, but not right now. It's a paper bound xerox copy type manual and is very well done and worth getting.

Good luck.

Tom Kizer

[TOMKIZER]

By the way, this forum reminds me of where I used to work at DaimlerChrysler. Around the table at staff meetings, there were four Toms. It often sounded a little like an Abbott and Costello who's-on-first routine. We need to start using User Names to address each other.

Cheers,

Tom (ha ha)

[A.D.]

Hi Tom

Have sent ou an e mail with the information that i have found. Request if you could let me know if this is correct and i can follow it for the reassembly process of the engine?

B Regards

A.D.

[A.D.]

By the way, forgot to add: i have bought Ferrari Tunung tips and techniques, and have registered on the Ferrari owners site. The service manuals are not available on the owners site (only owners manuals) and the ones that i got from Ron are for the 330 GT 2 + 2 WHICH SEEMS TO HAVE A DIFFERENT engine when i compare the two manuals.

I am completely lost, with the engine sitting in pcs at the engine shop, the car in pcs in my garage.............Need Help!

What would be ideal is, if a good samaritan would come to my rescue with a service/shop manual specifically for the GT 365 2 + 2

A.D.

[tyang]

Hi A.D.

Although I already responded privately, I wanted to see what others felt on specs for the 365 engines. First of all, be careful of which specs you look at because There are two types of 365 engines. A four cam, and two cam engine. Very different engines, probably with different torque specs. For A.D.'s car, he should stick with two cam specs, and I'd imagine 330 specs, as these are essentially the same engine (for torque specs) except the 365 has more displacement. Anybody else have thoughts on this?

Tom

[TOMKIZER]

Hi Tom Y and A.D,
I agree with Tom Y. I typically use 330 GT 2+2 torques or even 250 outside plug engine torques (available in the Ferrari Tuning Tips and Techniques by Apen and Roush) when I can't find the specified ones for my 365 GT 2+2. The old faf catalog had some generic torques (which I think were metal-to-metal joint design torques). Gasketed joints typically use less than the generic torques. I, personally, would rather use Ferrari specified torques for a specific location, even from a different engine, so long as the bolt size is the same. These engines had slight differences but for a given location and bolt size, the torques couldn't have varied much.
Please beware. I am no authority on Ferrari bolt torques. I also would be interested to hear from others what they use for the 365 GT 2+2 engine torques.
Tom Kizer

[mikewegener]

Hi A.D.

For A.D.'s car, he should stick with two cam specs, and I'd imagine 330 specs, as these are essentially the same engine (for torque specs) except the 365 has more displacement. Anybody else have thoughts on this?

Tom

Tom you are right - if both engines use the same headbolts. The torque specification given relates to the headbolts only. Two different engines using the same bolts will have the same torque specifications. As an engineer I can tell you that there is nothing glamorous or mysterious in designing an engine. Once you know your effective pressures in the combustion chambers you go to a catalog that lists headbolts. You pick a size that fits your space given, is compatible with the block material and will withstand the pressures.
On assembly the torque reading does two things. It limits the force on the bolt to keep it from stretching and thereby ruining the bolts effectiveness. And it makes sure that the block and heads are equally stressed by every bolt in the assembly.
So reverse engineering this means that if the 330 engine and the 365 engine share headbolts they will also share torque readings. As a small manufacturer I am sure that Ferrari accountants told the engineers to standardize all fasteners so the chances are very good that the headbolts are all the same.
Tightening down the bolts is also always in the same pattern. Here the rule is to tighten the bolts in a circular spiraling pattern from the inside bolts to the outside. The reason being that the head casting actually stretches as it is being clamped down. If the tightening would start on the outside ends the casting would have to compress in the center creating stress risers and gasket failures. Hope this helps A.D. and gets his car on the road.
Mike

[A.D.]

Thank you for your input Tom K, Tom Y and Mike.

Have found the shop manual for the 330 GT-The engine is basically the same- a two cam engine, and am following the Torque specs from that.

The assembly is progressing now, and hope to report back soon!

Would have been completely lost without you guys..............have restored many cars but none have been such a challenge. Each time i get stuck, and yell for help you come to my rescue.Thank you!

[tyang]

Thank you for your input Tom K, Tom Y and Mike.

Have found the shop manual for the 330 GT-The engine is basically the same- a two cam engine, and am following the Torque specs from that.

The assembly is progressing now, and hope to report back soon!

Would have been completely lost without you guys..............have restored many cars but none have been such a challenge. Each time i get stuck, and yell for help you come to my rescue.Thank you!

Hi A.D.,

The whole purpose of this site is to help others with Vintage Ferraris! When I started this site nearly 10 years ago there was practically no information available on the Internet, and the old timers were still communicating via telephone and snail mail! Boy have things changed.

It will be an accomplishment to us all if we can get your Ferrari started, running, and driving on the streets of India. I'm looking forward to it!

Tom

[A.D.]

Reminds me of an old song by the Beatles "Come Together.......Yeah!"

[A.D.]

To all my friends who have so kindly guided me every step of the way................
Wish you a Merry Christmas and all the very best for 2009!

[A.D.]

an update:

the engine is now ready to be refitted in the car.

due to the size and weight will install the block first and then assemble the heads on (this is also the way i had removed the engine from the car)

will check compression before actually starting up

will keep you posted

watch this space!

[A.D.]

Hi Guys

All the new parts came in and fitted perfectly.

The block is back in the engine bay, the heads have been fitted on.

Havent torqued them yet-Up until now all this has been going on in my garage, and for the final bit i plan to have the car towed to the repair shop this week where i will have the engine heads correctly torqued, valve train set get the manifold put back on with the carbs etc.

Have printed out all the info re valve adjustment from Giovanni's post

Met a friend at a party last nite who gave me some tips of "to dos" before actually firing the engine.

Any last minute advice? I am about to take the plunge..................!