Can anyone detail this sketch to show exactly what the mechanics are here. This is a simple plug i show, but this may be something else.
I hope you get more detail to proceed.
Craig
365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
Hi A.D,
These are tapered thread plugs that in the auto industry were called core plugs. The American auto industry used what we called Welch plugs (a brand name, I expect), which were stamped sheet metal and were pressed in. The early 365 GT 2+2 parts book says there should be eight total - Tavola 5, item #36. The holes in the heads resulted from where the cooling jacket sand cores "printed" into the sand cores that formed the top of the head that you see in your photos. The other side of the cooling jacket sand cores "printed", by way of the head face coolant holes, into the sand cores that formed the combustion chamber side of the head. After the head casting was solidified, the cooling jacket sand cores were shaken out through the holes and during the machining, the holes were drilled, tapped and plugged.
I can't imagine why they would be leaking now if they weren't leaking before and haven't been removed, but they obviously are. Truly, the only solution is to remove them, clean the threads and reinstall them with new sealant.
Are all of them leaking?
Since you haven't started the engine yet, they must be leaking under conditions of no water pressure - correct?
Are the plugs aluminum or steel? I expect aluminum alloy.
You are better to do nothing while waiting to find someone who has dealt with these plugs before. Please wait for Tom Yang to talk to François or someone who really "KNOWS" how to deal with this.
Also, please don't try to torque them tighter to stop the leakage. The worst thing you can do is to crack the cylinder head by overtorquing these plugs.
" When in doubt - Don't ! ", is my motto. This engine is not very perishable, so waiting won't make it worse.
Please keep us informed of your findings.
Tom Kizer
These are tapered thread plugs that in the auto industry were called core plugs. The American auto industry used what we called Welch plugs (a brand name, I expect), which were stamped sheet metal and were pressed in. The early 365 GT 2+2 parts book says there should be eight total - Tavola 5, item #36. The holes in the heads resulted from where the cooling jacket sand cores "printed" into the sand cores that formed the top of the head that you see in your photos. The other side of the cooling jacket sand cores "printed", by way of the head face coolant holes, into the sand cores that formed the combustion chamber side of the head. After the head casting was solidified, the cooling jacket sand cores were shaken out through the holes and during the machining, the holes were drilled, tapped and plugged.
I can't imagine why they would be leaking now if they weren't leaking before and haven't been removed, but they obviously are. Truly, the only solution is to remove them, clean the threads and reinstall them with new sealant.
Are all of them leaking?
Since you haven't started the engine yet, they must be leaking under conditions of no water pressure - correct?
Are the plugs aluminum or steel? I expect aluminum alloy.
You are better to do nothing while waiting to find someone who has dealt with these plugs before. Please wait for Tom Yang to talk to François or someone who really "KNOWS" how to deal with this.
Also, please don't try to torque them tighter to stop the leakage. The worst thing you can do is to crack the cylinder head by overtorquing these plugs.
" When in doubt - Don't ! ", is my motto. This engine is not very perishable, so waiting won't make it worse.
Please keep us informed of your findings.
Tom Kizer
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
Hi A.D.,
Good news. Francois said it's not too bad of a fix. He thinks the plugs are aluminum, and can be drilled out, but will be a lot of work. He suggests using some Moroso Ceramic Engine Sealer:
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categoryd ... code=22005
If this doesn't work, you may have to pull the plugs, but if it's weeping out, it may seal with this stuff.
Tom
Good news. Francois said it's not too bad of a fix. He thinks the plugs are aluminum, and can be drilled out, but will be a lot of work. He suggests using some Moroso Ceramic Engine Sealer:
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categoryd ... code=22005
If this doesn't work, you may have to pull the plugs, but if it's weeping out, it may seal with this stuff.
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
-
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
- Posts: 1206
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
Tom,
Would that Ceramic sealer work for head gasket leaks as well?
How does it actually "seal"?
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Would that Ceramic sealer work for head gasket leaks as well?
How does it actually "seal"?
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
It works very much like Bar's stop leak, but is a more aggressive compound.
The head gasket leaks we had on the C4 a year ago were too large to seal up. Coolant was pouring out between the head and the block. It all depends on the leak.
A note to A.D., you'll have to follow the manufacturer's directions, and it looks like it won't work with antifreeze, so you'll have to replace it with regular water. Flush all the antifreeze out of the system before you use the additive.
Since you'll have to run your engine to do this, I would suggest the following procedure.
1. drain the cooling system.
2. button up the engine to ready it for running.
3. put some water in the cooling system adding the ceramic additive as per the instructions, but try not to fill it past the level of where the leak is to keep a minimum amount of water in the sump.
4. Attempt to start the engine.
5. once the engine is running, fill the rest of the cooling system with the additive, and run as per instructions.
Before attempting to add the ceramic sealer, you may want to make sure the engine will start and run. If you run into a problem with the running of the engine, you'll waste the additive because it will only work if it is allowed to circulate inside the engine block while it's running.
I'd buy two pints to make sure you have enough for this procedure.
A little bit of coolant inside the engine oil will not hurt anything as long as you drain the oil and change with new oil (filters too) when your leaks have stopped.
Good luck!
Tom
The head gasket leaks we had on the C4 a year ago were too large to seal up. Coolant was pouring out between the head and the block. It all depends on the leak.
A note to A.D., you'll have to follow the manufacturer's directions, and it looks like it won't work with antifreeze, so you'll have to replace it with regular water. Flush all the antifreeze out of the system before you use the additive.
Since you'll have to run your engine to do this, I would suggest the following procedure.
1. drain the cooling system.
2. button up the engine to ready it for running.
3. put some water in the cooling system adding the ceramic additive as per the instructions, but try not to fill it past the level of where the leak is to keep a minimum amount of water in the sump.
4. Attempt to start the engine.
5. once the engine is running, fill the rest of the cooling system with the additive, and run as per instructions.
Before attempting to add the ceramic sealer, you may want to make sure the engine will start and run. If you run into a problem with the running of the engine, you'll waste the additive because it will only work if it is allowed to circulate inside the engine block while it's running.
I'd buy two pints to make sure you have enough for this procedure.
A little bit of coolant inside the engine oil will not hurt anything as long as you drain the oil and change with new oil (filters too) when your leaks have stopped.
Good luck!
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
-
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
- Posts: 1206
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
Tom,
I have found that just eliminating the antifreeze on certain motors
cures the leaks caused by the slippery qualities of the antifreeze.
Jaguar 3.4 and 3.8 motor freeze plugs are a great example.
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
I have found that just eliminating the antifreeze on certain motors
cures the leaks caused by the slippery qualities of the antifreeze.
Jaguar 3.4 and 3.8 motor freeze plugs are a great example.
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
And if there is anywhere that you might not need antifreeze, it's India.
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
Rudy,Rudy van Daalen Wetters wrote:Tom,
I have found that just eliminating the antifreeze on certain motors
cures the leaks caused by the slippery qualities of the antifreeze.
Jaguar 3.4 and 3.8 motor freeze plugs are a great example.
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Besides antifreeze, there are anti corrosion additives in coolant that is good to have than just plain water. If you're not worried about freezing then get some anti corrosion additive to put with your water to keep the aluminum and cast iron in your Jag from reacting.
Yale,
I remember living in the south where most people would not use anitfreeze because they felt it would never freeze, until that one freak cold snap. There were a lot of cracked blocks. You never know.
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
Hi Guys
Thank you for all the input.
The heads and these plugs are both aluminium.
They are "weeping" -the water is coming through from underneath.
The water system was not "pressurised" as the engine had not yet been started-we discovered this when we filled coolant in the radiator after recoring and refitting.
Have decided to adopt the approach of using the ceramic sealant-The Titanium Putty i referred to earlier is such a sealant used extensively in marine applications-It can withstand heat upto 177 celsius and also high pressure. (forgot what the engine shop told me but i think it was 17 bar)
In case this doesnt work, we will always have the other option of drilling out etc, but this would mean removing the heads and putting them in danger, so this option is only a last resort.
Will remember to tell the engine shop to perform the sealing on ALL plugs both heads (although only one plug on each side is weeping) In order that we dont have to open it all up again in case this problem recurrs later on.
Should have the engine started by this weekend-so watch this space!
And my sincere thank you to all of you - for taking time off for guiding me through this process!Would have been lost without all of you!
Best
Thank you for all the input.
The heads and these plugs are both aluminium.
They are "weeping" -the water is coming through from underneath.
The water system was not "pressurised" as the engine had not yet been started-we discovered this when we filled coolant in the radiator after recoring and refitting.
Have decided to adopt the approach of using the ceramic sealant-The Titanium Putty i referred to earlier is such a sealant used extensively in marine applications-It can withstand heat upto 177 celsius and also high pressure. (forgot what the engine shop told me but i think it was 17 bar)
In case this doesnt work, we will always have the other option of drilling out etc, but this would mean removing the heads and putting them in danger, so this option is only a last resort.
Will remember to tell the engine shop to perform the sealing on ALL plugs both heads (although only one plug on each side is weeping) In order that we dont have to open it all up again in case this problem recurrs later on.
Should have the engine started by this weekend-so watch this space!
And my sincere thank you to all of you - for taking time off for guiding me through this process!Would have been lost without all of you!
Best
A.D.
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
A.D.,
We'll be sending all our good automotive thoughts your direction for a successful weekend. Good luck!
Tom
We'll be sending all our good automotive thoughts your direction for a successful weekend. Good luck!
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
Just spoke to the engine shop where the car is at.
They have done the sealing using Titanium Putty
They cranked the car and IT STARTED in half a turn of the starter
They did not run the engine for long as it was started just to check whether the water was still "weeping" and therefore had the head covers off.
BUT THE MAIN POINT IS SHE STARTS AND WORKS!
now assembling the rest of the bits and pcs-synchronisation of carbs etc will keep you posted........
letting you know as you have been through so much stress with me........
They have done the sealing using Titanium Putty
They cranked the car and IT STARTED in half a turn of the starter
They did not run the engine for long as it was started just to check whether the water was still "weeping" and therefore had the head covers off.
BUT THE MAIN POINT IS SHE STARTS AND WORKS!
now assembling the rest of the bits and pcs-synchronisation of carbs etc will keep you posted........
letting you know as you have been through so much stress with me........
A.D.
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
CONGRATULATIONS!!
quite the feeling, isn't it??
quite the feeling, isn't it??
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
She's running and she sounds beautiful!!
Have not taken her out on the road yet-just kept the engine running-no problems so far-just some minor ones like petrol leaking from the filter bowl in the engine compartment and the oil tube leading to the oil pressure gauge leaking.
Getting these two problems fixed, then will synchronise the carbs, and get her out on the road!
Do you think i should do a leakdown test and compression test as a hygeine check or its not necessary?
She sounds beautifullllllllllllllll!!!!
Have not taken her out on the road yet-just kept the engine running-no problems so far-just some minor ones like petrol leaking from the filter bowl in the engine compartment and the oil tube leading to the oil pressure gauge leaking.
Getting these two problems fixed, then will synchronise the carbs, and get her out on the road!
Do you think i should do a leakdown test and compression test as a hygeine check or its not necessary?
She sounds beautifullllllllllllllll!!!!
A.D.
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
oh, and a couple of questions:
is crinkle black the correct colour for the valve covers?
is semi gloss black the correct colour for the air cleaner box?
and should i paint the headers? if so which colour? i have VHT red available
best
is crinkle black the correct colour for the valve covers?
is semi gloss black the correct colour for the air cleaner box?
and should i paint the headers? if so which colour? i have VHT red available
best
A.D.
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171
Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration
A.D.,
CONGRATULATIONS!!! I am so happy for you!
The fuel leak from the carburetor is probably from a stuck float if it's not simply a loose banjo connection. Sometimes a simple disassembly of the top plate of the carb, removal of the float assembly, and good cleaning of the needle valve is all that is needed to stop the float from sticking. When you have the needle out, make sure the point is not bent.
Valve covers are wrinkle black, air cleaner is semi gloss black, the exhaust headers are high temp black, but the sheet metal heat shields are wrinkle black. Personally, I wouldn't use the red paint on the header pipes. Even though they'll be hidden mostly by the heat shields, the hint of red might me a little garish in the subdued color scheme of the engine compartment.
Good on you!
Tom
CONGRATULATIONS!!! I am so happy for you!
The fuel leak from the carburetor is probably from a stuck float if it's not simply a loose banjo connection. Sometimes a simple disassembly of the top plate of the carb, removal of the float assembly, and good cleaning of the needle valve is all that is needed to stop the float from sticking. When you have the needle out, make sure the point is not bent.
Valve covers are wrinkle black, air cleaner is semi gloss black, the exhaust headers are high temp black, but the sheet metal heat shields are wrinkle black. Personally, I wouldn't use the red paint on the header pipes. Even though they'll be hidden mostly by the heat shields, the hint of red might me a little garish in the subdued color scheme of the engine compartment.
Good on you!
Tom
'63 330 America #5053