365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

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A.D.
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Location: INDIA

Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby A.D. » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:11 pm

Hi Tom
Sent you an e mail with my e mail address.
A.D.
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171

A.D.
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:52 am
Location: INDIA

Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby A.D. » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:40 am

Hello
Have had big setback. I have had the car painted and posted some pictures. ( Hope you liked them!). However the paint job took over a year I was about to start on the wiring when to my dismay I have found that the engine has jammed solid once again! Strange because it was running smooth and strong when I sent the car to the paint shop.I suspect that they left the car out in the rain and water has gotten into the cylinders and rusted the rings. The ordinal mechanic who worked on the car with a lot of help and detailed instructions from all of you has moved away. I am reluctant to let someone else work on the engine. Depressed. It's like I take one step forward and two steps backwards. Any ideas thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
A.D.

GT 365 2 + 2

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Dan Sands
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby Dan Sands » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:53 pm

Hi A.D.,
It seems strange a shop would leave the engine exposed to rain without at least the air cleaner cover on. Please don’t take offence, but could it be as simple as a dead battery? If the car sat a long time, doors open for hours on end with the dome light on and the clock running.
Did you put it in fifth and rock it back and forth to see if she’d turn? If that doesn't help, pull the plugs and look in the cylinders with a video camera. eBay has them, very inexpensive, $25 and up. I used one years ago after mine sat for a long time and found surface rust. Be careful, under magnification, light surface rust that should be harmless and might wipe off immediately on start up will look like a ship hull. If it is very light, shoot some penetrating oil in each cylinder and let it soak overnight while the battery charges and try again in the morning. Unless the cylinders are full of water and look like hell, you should be fine.
Dan
Dan Sands
1969 365 GT 2+2 12629

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tyang
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby tyang » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:37 pm

A.D. wrote:Hello
Have had big setback. I have had the car painted and posted some pictures. ( Hope you liked them!). However the paint job took over a year I was about to start on the wiring when to my dismay I have found that the engine has jammed solid once again! Strange because it was running smooth and strong when I sent the car to the paint shop.I suspect that they left the car out in the rain and water has gotten into the cylinders and rusted the rings. The ordinal mechanic who worked on the car with a lot of help and detailed instructions from all of you has moved away. I am reluctant to let someone else work on the engine. Depressed. It's like I take one step forward and two steps backwards. Any ideas thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Hi AD,

Sorry to hear about your engine. I would agree with Dan and check the simple things first. We have a product in the States called Marvel Mystery Oil, and it's a very thin oil that can be squirted down into the spark plug holes. Red Transmission fluid will work too.

The front pulley takes a 36mm socket, but access to the pulley on the 365 might be tight. You may also have to turn down the edge of the socket to fit down the sides of the pulley.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

A.D.
Posts: 130
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Location: INDIA

Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby A.D. » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:35 am

Thank you Dan, Tom.

Allow me to explain a bit more in detail.

Once we had done the engine, all that seemed wrong with it was that there was a slight miss. We tracked this down to the carbs, as when we shifted the carb from one bank to another, the miss also got transferred to that bank of cylinders. We kept the engine running for a long time, (to free up the engine) and then finally removed the carbs and sent them off to Mike Pierce (who if you recall had done the carb rebuild). Mike soon reverted stating that these carbs could not be repaired as the base had been twisted (probably due to over torquing). He very kindly tracked down another fully restored unused set and sent those to me.

I was reluctant to get them fitted on the car by the same persons who had done the job earlier, as i was apprehensive of over torquing etc. I therefore requested a friend who is very good and sensitive to carbs to put them on and set them for me. However when he saw the car, he suggested that before we actually put on the new carbs, i get the car painted and rewired first. So off the car went (with no carbs) to the paint shop.The unused carbs are in a cupboard with me since then.

This took about a year, and i must say they did a fine job. (I posted some pictures earlier - I hope you saw them). I then had to tow the car to another garage where i had arranged to have the entire wiring redone. My plan was that once the wiring was done, i would get the carbs fitted and restart the engine. It is at this stage that we found that the engine seemed to be jammed again.

We then pulled the engine from the car, poured oil through the spark plug holes over several days, but have made no progress at all. We even opened the oil pan and tried "knocking" the pistons from the bottom with a piece of wood, but they refused to budge.

Since the last post, i have arranged for the engine to be refitted into the car, and for it to be returned to the same mechanic who had fixed the engine earlier. (yes i tracked him down). Like me, he too is very reluctant to reopen the engine, especially since we had (with all your help and guidance) got it running so strongly and smoothly.

What i have arranged with him is:

1. I will buy and send him the scope to look down the spark plug hole for rust.
2. He will repeat the process of oil through the spark plug holes and turning by hand.
3. If the above does not work, as a last resort, we will open the engine again.

Will keep you posted.

In the meanwhile all suggestions and help would be highly appreciated!
A.D.

GT 365 2 + 2

S NR 12171

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tyang
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby tyang » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:20 am

Hi A.D.,

I hope with the carbs off the engine, the holes were covered so nothing would fall in down the intakes? If a nut or washer fell down there and jammed open an intake valve, it could stop a piston from moving at TDC. You can pull the intake manifolds off to look at the top of the intake valves to see if anything is obstructing a valve. I don't want to be an alarmist, and doubt this happened.

There are a few pistons you can disconnect from the crank with just the bottom oil pan removed. With the end cap removed, you should be able to bump it up into the cylinder to see if it's free. Check the one's you have access to and if you're lucky, you'll find the one you can reach the stuck piston. Obviously, mark and replace all the parts and bearings in the same way you found them. Remove the rod bolts to avoid scratching the crank journals. With the engine out of the car, you should be able to work on this with less difficulty. Trust me, I know, I once had to swap out a bent rod from a C/4 with the engine still in the car.

Hang in there. We've come this far, and we'll overcome this!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

250GT
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby 250GT » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:46 am

Hello A.D.

I had for year this problem with a 8 cyl Maserati .
WD 40 could not bring back the free movement of the engine( Fly rust too)
Than I made a try with REAL Coca Cola (no joke).
after 3 days I could turn the engine by engaging the GB in 4th and turn the rear wheel with a bar(Borrani off)
DON´T damage the fly wheel when turning by a screwdriver, a tooth can easy break off.

best

C.

Dan Sands
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:32 pm
Location: Salem, OR

Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby Dan Sands » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:17 am

Hi A.D.,
I would be very cautious about pouring Coke in the cylinders. There are many products available to dissolve rust without putting sugar in your engine. No offence C. For frozen and rusted bolts I use Kano Kroil personally, but there are a ton of products out there, WD40 is not a rust remover.
My son dropped a 6mm wavy washer down his intake and started the engine. That tiny washer was enough to make a hell of a racket, He was very lucky that we were able to clean up the piston and combustion chamber and that his valves and cylinders were not damaged. We thought the motor was seized, but ½ the washer was stuck in the piston on edge and jammed against the combustion chamber.
You can imagine how easy it can be to misplace a 6mm washer. There is no need to go out and buy a high end camera. Milwaukee tools have a nice one, but even Harbor Freight started carrying a cheap knock off. We don’t need to be able to read what’s stamped in the top of the piston; we just need to see if there is an obstruction.
Dan
Dan Sands

1969 365 GT 2+2 12629

250GT
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby 250GT » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:23 pm

Dan Sands wrote:Hi A.D.,
I would be very cautious about pouring Coke in the cylinders. There are many products available to dissolve rust without putting sugar in your engine. No offence C. For frozen and rusted bolts I use Kano Kroil personally, but there are a ton of products out there, WD40 is not a rust remover.
My son dropped a 6mm wavy washer down his intake and started the engine. That tiny washer was enough to make a hell of a racket, He was very lucky that we were able to clean up the piston and combustion chamber and that his valves and cylinders were not damaged. We thought the motor was seized, but ½ the washer was stuck in the piston on edge and jammed against the combustion chamber.
You can imagine how easy it can be to misplace a 6mm washer. There is no need to go out and buy a high end camera. Milwaukee tools have a nice one, but even Harbor Freight started carrying a cheap knock off. We don’t need to be able to read what’s stamped in the top of the piston; we just need to see if there is an obstruction.
Dan


DAN,
WD40 has an excl rostremover:

http://www.wd40specialist.com/products/penetrating-oil/

the problem when you live in INDIA is humidity (monsoon rain)
up to 90-100%
I give the tip of Coca Cola which is unconventional.
but I can imagine when you live there you can not go to the next car shop next door !
About sugar dont for get all you cars drive on at least 10-15 % ethanol which is produced out off ?…..
………..SUGAR
sugar in the fuel tank is killig for the carburetors not the engine on it self.
if you can avoid it, I am on you're side

C.

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tyang
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby tyang » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:05 pm

My Mantra is "easiest thing first," and that includes what to use to free up an engine. I've heard the Coke trick before, but luckily have not needed to resort to its effectiveness!

I agree with Dan, it won't take much resolution to see which cylinder walls are rusty. If there's something stuck at the valve, no camera will be able to look back by the valve faces.

Many years ago, I saw unbelievable damage done to 350 Chevy boat motor with a little lock washer. The lock washer found its way down an intake and chose to fall down past the intake valve when the engine was spinning at 4K. By the time the throttle was pulled back, the piston was holed.

All the members on this forum are sending positive thoughts to India in hopes it's something easy to fix!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

zac
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby zac » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:22 pm

Tom, just a quick note there is an attachment for the boroscope camera that allows you to look back up at the valve face or top of the combustion chamber. Kind of like a reverse periscope, saved my behind more than once to see a stuck valve etc.

Marvel Mystery oil is a go to fix to get things moving again over here in the states but the automatic transmission fluid/acetone mix works just as good in a pinch and is available just about anywhere. Just a word of caution that even if you can get the engine to turn over again there is no garauntee that the rings are'nt rusted in the groves of the pistons etc.

Zac
1970 365 gt 2+2 13137, 1997 550 Maranello, 1969 Lamborghini Miura S, 1973 365 GTB/4 Daytona

A.D.
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:52 am
Location: INDIA

Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby A.D. » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:56 am

Hi Guys,

Got the boroscope, peered down through the spark plug hole, found a LOT of rust, AND A NUT!

Anyway, tried our best to free up the engine, and when that just didnt seem to happen, opened up the engine again.
Two cylinders were completely stuck and even with the engine open couldnt get them out. So a little hydraulic pressure was used to and finally got them out.

The good news is that with a little polishing the cylinders seem fine.

All that we need to do is to replace the rings and the engine gasket set.

I have been in touch with John Swanner at T Rutlands to order these. However I remember you advising me that
there are two types of engine gaskets - one made in Australia and one made elsewhere. I am unable to find that post. Could you let me know which one should be ordered?

As always, many thanks for your help!
A.D.

GT 365 2 + 2

S NR 12171

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tyang
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby tyang » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:49 pm

Hi AD,

I don't know which gaskets T Rutland stocks for gaskets, but there's an article I wrote a few years ago about gaskets in the "Tips" Section:
http://www.tomyang.net/cars/headgaskets.htm

You are very lucky that nut was found inside the combustion chamber. If the motor had freed without pulling the heads, you might have fired it up and cause some really bad damage with the nut rattling around!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

Timo
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Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby Timo » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:11 pm

A.D.,
Without going to details of my on-going research regarding this and giving away my findings/opinions until I'm ready to some day publish them (and like Tom with this site, hopefully make couple of $$'s for my trouble) I just want to add that the head gasket issue might have quite a bit more to it than suggested in the "Tips" article.
Timo

A.D.
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:52 am
Location: INDIA

Re: 365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby A.D. » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:30 am

Love the new updated look Tom!

A quick update and a question:

The second teardown and rebuild of the engine is progressing well and I hope to have the car and its engine back together again in a couple of weeks.

While waiting for the engine work to be completed, had the car rewired using the diagrams that Tom K sent. (Thank you!)

As I have understood this car has two switches on the dash for two separate fuel pumps.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why there were two?

Wouldn't one be sufficient?

I fear I am missing something here, hence the question.

Best
A.D.

GT 365 2 + 2

S NR 12171


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