I saw an add for Re-orginals which mentioned that they had Ferrari interiors and I told Tom, (king of foam), I would investigate what their foam padding situation was. Matt there told me he has foam for the GTC's and many other cars but none for the early 2 + 2's. I wondered, since there was more of them (the +2's that is), why there wasn't enough demand for that sort of item. Matt said the GTC folks are always restoring their cars and the +'2 folks are not. That started me thinking about us 2 plus 2's owners (and cars) after I called Francois to arrange to pick up may car.
Some of you may remember from Tom's old list the problem I was having with quite a bit of vibration in may car. It has been fixed, says Francois, after balancing the drive shaft by sanding down this large lead weight that was welded to one side of the drive shaft and adding some weight to the otherside. - actually Tom told me that as Francois just said, "It's fixed." (I wonder why there was a big lead weight that totally sent the drive shaft out of balance there. Can you imagine the stories of what these 40 year old cars have gone through.) Now the sounds the differential was making before are becoming more apparent and need to dealt with in the not to distant future. Francois is working on a GTC and there always seems to be a 275 or two and so he doesn't have time this month to work on it.
All of this made me think that everytime a 2 seat person buys a Ferrari they restore it in one go, while us plus 2ers do it as we go along or, (by ourselves over a three year period). Of course I know the cars do not have the same value. (It also made me think of the fact that Ferrari ownership can be as expensive as you would expect.)
- Yale
The + 2's
I agree with Yale's observation. It raises several points that I have made in a scattered way over time both on this site and Ferrarichat.
Anyone who participates on this site knows that restoring a 2+2 makes no economic sense. Even if you do the work yourself and ascribe $0 for your labor, you might break even or make a few bucks. We do it because of our passion, even when it outstrips logic. Because many of us do the work ourselves, or hire the dwindling gods like Francois who are competent to do the work, we spread the work out over time to take the pain out of the money spent (i.e., spending $20k on a car worth $50k when you bought it for $35k doesn't feel so bad when you spend the $20k over five years . . .).
When looking at the relative values of 2+2s versus their 2 seat brothers, we always look at the original production numbers - there were more 2+2s made than 2 seaters. However, I wish there was a way that we could truly determine how many 2+2s that are still out there as viable Ferraris - to be driven as they were created and not as 250GTO repros. I think we would all be shocked at how few 2+2s are left because of the very phenomena Yale describes. I believe that the 250 PF Coupes have to be included with the 2+2s - they have been unloved by the market for so long (I think that this is changing - I'll bet they will be 'discovered' just like 250 Boanos and Elenas were in this last market upswing).
The only people who could even hazard an educated guess on how many of these endangered species remain would be folks like Kerry Chesbro and Kurt Vandenberg. I'll repeat what I have posted previously, Kurt, the keeper of the PF Coupe register, believes that only between 175 and 200 of the 353 Coupes remain. I'll bet that the GTEs, 330 2+2s and the queen mothers have fared worse. I don't know if Kerry is able to throw out an educated number.
I love spending money on my 365 because I love the car. I really don't follow the 'market' on it because I really don't care. Even if it doubled in value (whoa! watch out for flying pigs!) I'd wouldn't sell it mostly because of my emotional investment in it, and I love packing it with 3 other people for drives or going to Ferrari events. I do feel better, however, knowing that I am being a responsible custodian of a car that is becoming rarer by the day.
end of speech
Anyone who participates on this site knows that restoring a 2+2 makes no economic sense. Even if you do the work yourself and ascribe $0 for your labor, you might break even or make a few bucks. We do it because of our passion, even when it outstrips logic. Because many of us do the work ourselves, or hire the dwindling gods like Francois who are competent to do the work, we spread the work out over time to take the pain out of the money spent (i.e., spending $20k on a car worth $50k when you bought it for $35k doesn't feel so bad when you spend the $20k over five years . . .).
When looking at the relative values of 2+2s versus their 2 seat brothers, we always look at the original production numbers - there were more 2+2s made than 2 seaters. However, I wish there was a way that we could truly determine how many 2+2s that are still out there as viable Ferraris - to be driven as they were created and not as 250GTO repros. I think we would all be shocked at how few 2+2s are left because of the very phenomena Yale describes. I believe that the 250 PF Coupes have to be included with the 2+2s - they have been unloved by the market for so long (I think that this is changing - I'll bet they will be 'discovered' just like 250 Boanos and Elenas were in this last market upswing).
The only people who could even hazard an educated guess on how many of these endangered species remain would be folks like Kerry Chesbro and Kurt Vandenberg. I'll repeat what I have posted previously, Kurt, the keeper of the PF Coupe register, believes that only between 175 and 200 of the 353 Coupes remain. I'll bet that the GTEs, 330 2+2s and the queen mothers have fared worse. I don't know if Kerry is able to throw out an educated number.
I love spending money on my 365 because I love the car. I really don't follow the 'market' on it because I really don't care. Even if it doubled in value (whoa! watch out for flying pigs!) I'd wouldn't sell it mostly because of my emotional investment in it, and I love packing it with 3 other people for drives or going to Ferrari events. I do feel better, however, knowing that I am being a responsible custodian of a car that is becoming rarer by the day.
end of speech
I was thinking the other day, how it would be just about impossible for me to sell my 330 America because of all the things I've been through with this car. It was my first Ferrari, my first Ferrari Restoration, and the first car I had a hand in every aspect of its rebuild. There's a lot of water under that bridge of restoration, and the price to sell the product of all that is just unimaginable. Why did I spend so much money and time on a car that is worth less than the sum of my efforts? I did it for the pure love of it. The same goes for the website. If people don't get that, they never will.
Tom
Now, if I can't sell the 330 America, how am I going to finance my next Ferrari project?!?
Tom
Now, if I can't sell the 330 America, how am I going to finance my next Ferrari project?!?
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chrisoutzen
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 7:49 pm
- Location: Outside Boston MA
- Contact:
Records I have in the 330 GT Registry (http://www.330gt.com) show counts of 223 of 628 for the 4HL cars, 196 of 461 for the 2HL cars and 31 of 50 for Americas. These are cars where I have recent information (1996 or later), so presumably they are still around at this point.
These total 460 out of 1139, or about 40%. I have information on 782 of the 1139 or about 70%. The other 30% are unknown. I would guess that about half the unknowns still exist or about 175 of them. Given that, I think that a little over half (55%) of the 330 GTs and Americas still exist.
BTW, I know of 47 that have been rebodied into some more exotic (and expensive) model.
Regards, Kerry
These total 460 out of 1139, or about 40%. I have information on 782 of the 1139 or about 70%. The other 30% are unknown. I would guess that about half the unknowns still exist or about 175 of them. Given that, I think that a little over half (55%) of the 330 GTs and Americas still exist.
BTW, I know of 47 that have been rebodied into some more exotic (and expensive) model.
Regards, Kerry
I dug up some production numbers last night and put them together w/ Kerry's and Kurt's estimates for surviving 330 2+2s and PF Coupes. (The name of the person keeping the 250GTE register escapes me - could he hazard a guess?)
250 PF Coupes - 353 made - 175 to 200 surviving as PF Coupes?
250GTE - 954 made - ___ surviving as GTEs?
250 Lusso - 350 made
330 GT 2+2 - 1139 made - 579 surviving (I subtracted the 47 recreations from Kerry's 55% guesstimate survival rate)
330 GTC - 600 made
365 GTC - 150 made
365 GT 2+2 - 801 made - ___ surviving as Queen Mothers?
So for some examples - PF Coupes vs. Lussos. There must certainly be more Lussos running around than 175 surviving PF Coupes. No one I know of is chopping up Lussos, parting them out, or just deciding that they are not worth restoring. So is the more plentiful Lusso really worth more than the rarer Coupe with the same motor (at least the last 150 Coupes w/ the outside plug)? Is the Lusso sexier? Sure, but I swear part of the market pricing, valuing the Lusso at more than twice a Coupe, is based on the erroneous assumption that there are a lot more Coupes than Lussos and it is simply not the case.
330GT 2+2s vs 330 GTCs - same thing. Possibly 579 surviving +2s compared to a likely high rate of surviving GTCs of the 600 made. Unless someone completely totals a GTC beyond repair, GTCs aren't turning to dust - the pool of survivors is probably fairly fixed. The same cannot be said for the +2s, so a large percentage of the basket case +2s might never be brought back to original condition.
My point is (and not to sound too melodramatic) that we hardy few who spend more money than is economically logical saving these cars, not only do it for the passion, but because we are the custodians of what may end up being the rarest of production Ferraris - the 2+2s.
keep it up
Bryan
250 PF Coupes - 353 made - 175 to 200 surviving as PF Coupes?
250GTE - 954 made - ___ surviving as GTEs?
250 Lusso - 350 made
330 GT 2+2 - 1139 made - 579 surviving (I subtracted the 47 recreations from Kerry's 55% guesstimate survival rate)
330 GTC - 600 made
365 GTC - 150 made
365 GT 2+2 - 801 made - ___ surviving as Queen Mothers?
So for some examples - PF Coupes vs. Lussos. There must certainly be more Lussos running around than 175 surviving PF Coupes. No one I know of is chopping up Lussos, parting them out, or just deciding that they are not worth restoring. So is the more plentiful Lusso really worth more than the rarer Coupe with the same motor (at least the last 150 Coupes w/ the outside plug)? Is the Lusso sexier? Sure, but I swear part of the market pricing, valuing the Lusso at more than twice a Coupe, is based on the erroneous assumption that there are a lot more Coupes than Lussos and it is simply not the case.
330GT 2+2s vs 330 GTCs - same thing. Possibly 579 surviving +2s compared to a likely high rate of surviving GTCs of the 600 made. Unless someone completely totals a GTC beyond repair, GTCs aren't turning to dust - the pool of survivors is probably fairly fixed. The same cannot be said for the +2s, so a large percentage of the basket case +2s might never be brought back to original condition.
My point is (and not to sound too melodramatic) that we hardy few who spend more money than is economically logical saving these cars, not only do it for the passion, but because we are the custodians of what may end up being the rarest of production Ferraris - the 2+2s.
keep it up
Bryan
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John Vardanian
- Posts: 1908
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:13 am
- Location: San Francisco Area
I agree with all points of view expressed on this subject. However, Ferraris tend to suffer from the "soup of the day" syndrome. Take the Daytona. They used to be so much more sought after than they are today. Take the Lusso and the opposite applies. I know of at least a couple of decent Lussos that were sacrificed for GTO's, back when the GTO replica business wasn't what it is today. One thing that I feel certain of is that the Daytona will not remain in a slump and the Lusso will not stay in the limelight. Take the 275 GTB, almost everyone prefers the Longnose as opposed the Shortnose and the prices reflect that. But in this enthusiast's point of view the Shortnose, as a design package, is far superior to the Longnose. Again, take the 330GT 2+2 two headlight vs. the four headlight. The 4HL is perceived as the second banana to the 2HL, but, once again, in this enthusiast's eye the 4HL is a superior aesthetic design. Does this mean that the trend will change where the 4HL will be more sought after than the 2HL and the Shortnose will command higher prices than the Longnose? We shall see.
John Vardanian
John Vardanian
I would guess that the number of 365 2+2s is still pretty high. Are they used for any common rebody?
I know Chinetti rebodied a few into some awful (IMO) looking cars, and of course Bill Harrah did his Jerrari, sacrificing one, but it seems to me that you rarely see basket cases at auctions or on eBay, not something that can be said about GTEs and 330s.
I know Chinetti rebodied a few into some awful (IMO) looking cars, and of course Bill Harrah did his Jerrari, sacrificing one, but it seems to me that you rarely see basket cases at auctions or on eBay, not something that can be said about GTEs and 330s.
I wish I had a clue on the # of Queen Mothers still around since I have one (the 26th of 801).
On one hand, the wheelbase is too long for GTO and TR fakes so the chassis isn't really an attractive target (it also has independent rear susp. so the frame is engineered a little differently than the older ones). I believe the 4.4 liter motor is also too big dimensionally for recreations (I think I'm correct that the tipo 245 motor is not just a bored out 250 from the same cast?). Also, large areas of the underbelly and trunk bed are fiberglass - so they don't die from rust in those areas.
On the other hand, the 365 has more 'stuff' than earlier +2s that can break and lead to failure to maintain; air conditioning, electric windows, pneumatic self-levellers, etc.
To my knowledge, there is not a Queen Mother register, so no one out there really knows. I know Tom Shaughnessy has parted out a few, I've seen a few dogs, and a couple of years ago on this site, a guy from the Phillipines sent a picture of one that looked like it had weeds growing through it . . .
On one hand, the wheelbase is too long for GTO and TR fakes so the chassis isn't really an attractive target (it also has independent rear susp. so the frame is engineered a little differently than the older ones). I believe the 4.4 liter motor is also too big dimensionally for recreations (I think I'm correct that the tipo 245 motor is not just a bored out 250 from the same cast?). Also, large areas of the underbelly and trunk bed are fiberglass - so they don't die from rust in those areas.
On the other hand, the 365 has more 'stuff' than earlier +2s that can break and lead to failure to maintain; air conditioning, electric windows, pneumatic self-levellers, etc.
To my knowledge, there is not a Queen Mother register, so no one out there really knows. I know Tom Shaughnessy has parted out a few, I've seen a few dogs, and a couple of years ago on this site, a guy from the Phillipines sent a picture of one that looked like it had weeds growing through it . . .
2+2 attraction
this seems to be a venue
for expression of opinions
(not sharing of facts)
and maybe rant and rave a bit
(or is it venting?)
my $.02 worth (with inflation make that $2.00)
The main attraction to the 2+2s
(let's face it) is PRICE
they are less desireable
in terms of performance and style
that is why they are valued less
because they are WORTH less
any one with pretensions
about being interested in them
because of their scaricity
wanting to preserve them for posterity
etc, etc, etc
I just don't buy it, sorry
Most any one with a 2+2 will admit
(if pressured)
that they would rather have a coupe
than a 2+2
can any one with a 4H 330 2+2
HONESTLY say they would NOT
rather have a 275 GTC/4?
even our esteemed host mr tyang
freely admits to lusting after a Lusso
I freely admit I would rather have a 365 GTB/4
(or even a 365 GTC/4)
but I am unwilling / unable to pony up the $$$$
and that is the bottom line:
THE BOTTOM LINE
for expression of opinions
(not sharing of facts)
and maybe rant and rave a bit
(or is it venting?)
my $.02 worth (with inflation make that $2.00)
The main attraction to the 2+2s
(let's face it) is PRICE
they are less desireable
in terms of performance and style
that is why they are valued less
because they are WORTH less
any one with pretensions
about being interested in them
because of their scaricity
wanting to preserve them for posterity
etc, etc, etc
I just don't buy it, sorry
Most any one with a 2+2 will admit
(if pressured)
that they would rather have a coupe
than a 2+2
can any one with a 4H 330 2+2
HONESTLY say they would NOT
rather have a 275 GTC/4?
even our esteemed host mr tyang
freely admits to lusting after a Lusso
I freely admit I would rather have a 365 GTB/4
(or even a 365 GTC/4)
but I am unwilling / unable to pony up the $$$$
and that is the bottom line:
THE BOTTOM LINE
I would generally agree with Fest about buying a 2+2 for price, but I have received many e-mails from people who were looking for a car that they can take their family along.
Whatever the reason for initially buying the "+2s," it still pays tribute to a great company with a fun car. With the money and effort we spent on our cars, we could have bought a nice E-type, DB4, 911, but a Ferrari was the choice we made, and that's THE BOTTOM LINE.
In my defense, the preservation of these cars IS important to me. If people only cared about preserving the sporty, or sexy cars, there would be only 57 Belaires, 65 Mustang convertibles, and 250 SWBs. I have an intimate knowledge of my car, possibly more than most people, and there are just as many reasons to preserve the 330 America, as there is a Lusso.any one with pretensions
about being interested in them
because of their scaricity
wanting to preserve them for posterity
etc, etc, etc
I just don't buy it, sorry
Whatever the reason for initially buying the "+2s," it still pays tribute to a great company with a fun car. With the money and effort we spent on our cars, we could have bought a nice E-type, DB4, 911, but a Ferrari was the choice we made, and that's THE BOTTOM LINE.
-
Tom Wilson
- Posts: 1152
- Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:01 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Contact:
I will admit that the purchase of my GTE was heavily biased by price, but not by choice. Had the car I discovered in a friends back yard been a 250 LWB California Spyder (my personal favorite), I would not have bought it, as I could not have afforded it. But, due to the lower price of a GTE, I now own my first Ferrari! Having worked on it for about 2 years, I have truely made the car mine and would not sell it even if I could afford the California (I would, of course, have both).
There is, however, a tremendous advantage to the GTE, which while price related, is not entirely so. That is the driveability factor. If I had that California, it would probably spend the vast majority of its time in an air conditioned garage, to leave only when trucked to a show and driven only in the secure surroundings of other Ferrari's. The fear of getting a door ding would require such treatment. But when my GTE is done, I look forward to taking it up the Pacific Coast Highway for the weekend and to drive it just for fun. Of course I will baby the car, as I would anything I take pride in, but I bought this car to drive!
There is, however, a tremendous advantage to the GTE, which while price related, is not entirely so. That is the driveability factor. If I had that California, it would probably spend the vast majority of its time in an air conditioned garage, to leave only when trucked to a show and driven only in the secure surroundings of other Ferrari's. The fear of getting a door ding would require such treatment. But when my GTE is done, I look forward to taking it up the Pacific Coast Highway for the weekend and to drive it just for fun. Of course I will baby the car, as I would anything I take pride in, but I bought this car to drive!
Disagree
Fest. Sorry mate but i dont agree. I recently turned down a 308 in my budget range because im looking for either a 400i or a Mondial QV. To anyone the 308 is much more a sexy car. So athough price is important, the practical side is also important. Bottom Line!
Also although I dont currently own a ferrari, when I do get one, to me at least it will be the fullfilment of a dream. Also since I own it, it will mean more to me than any of my more favoured models.
I used to own a BMW Z1 and a Mercedes 500E. I sold them both about 4 years ago. The BMW was quick, sexy, and got more looks than just about anything on the road (largely due to the sliding doors). But if I was to buy one again it would be the rather ordinary looking, 4 door 500E.
Sometimes 2 seats are not everything.
Tom - Love the site. Been following it quietly for about a year now, and without a shadow of doubt, I think its the best site on the net. I'll let you know when I get my Ferrari.
Adnaan
Also although I dont currently own a ferrari, when I do get one, to me at least it will be the fullfilment of a dream. Also since I own it, it will mean more to me than any of my more favoured models.
I used to own a BMW Z1 and a Mercedes 500E. I sold them both about 4 years ago. The BMW was quick, sexy, and got more looks than just about anything on the road (largely due to the sliding doors). But if I was to buy one again it would be the rather ordinary looking, 4 door 500E.
Sometimes 2 seats are not everything.
Tom - Love the site. Been following it quietly for about a year now, and without a shadow of doubt, I think its the best site on the net. I'll let you know when I get my Ferrari.
Adnaan
Hi Adnaan,
Tom
Thanks for the kind words, and please let us know when you make the leap into Ferrari ownership! This site continues because of the support, and participation of its viewers. Thanks.Love the site. Been following it quietly for about a year now, and without a shadow of doubt, I think its the best site on the net. I'll let you know when I get my Ferrari.
Tom