Ferraris in NY, again, and again, and again
Leslie is with her Columbia class near the North Pole and the 14 year old is with a girl he met in summer camp so I though it'd be a good day to continue my never ending quest to suss out every problem with driving a vintage Ferrari. It was an uncommonly warm (50 degrees) early March day. Got in the car, which had been sitting for two months, and started her up, pretty uneventful if not smooth as cheese. Got out of the city and picked up speed and saw the oil temp meter pinned. Now my oil temp meter has never been one for veracity so seeing no other signs of imminent destruction I soldiered on and went over to the old car store called The Stable. (Jim Wickstead of this site, introduced me to Mark there and it is a nice 45 minute ride for some car and music talk.) After some chat I drove around NJ for a while trying to find roads that I had not driven on and that didn't have housing developments, hard going.
Started going home on Rt. 78, 80 - 90 mph most of the way and thought I should stop by a hand car wash as the roads were dry but had some salt on them. Got to the Holland Tunnel ramps and traffic was backed up, as is not unusual. This always gets my twin cooling fans going no matter what the outside temp. After getting past the ramps I drove back out towards the car wash only to find that road construction had blocked that street.
Thought I would wander around Jersey City to get there another way and passed another hand car wash so I turned and went to that one. There was a long line here and I turned the car off so as not to idle it anymore. Each car took the guys about 10 minutes to do so when I did keep the motor running I left the hood up which did a great job of keeping the engine cool. After about 1/2 an hour it was finally my turn. I put the hood down and they sprayed and soaped the car while I kept it running to inch it forward. Then the car died. It wasn't an issue until I had to move the car to the drying area. Nothing. Wouldn't start and barely turned over. Felt like the battery was dead. The guys pushed me to the side (with me asking every 2 seconds when a new guy came to help that they not push on the aluminum trunk). Thinking water might have gotten into the distributors they blew pressurized air at them. The owner suggested they give me a push and the car started right up. I backed up and they dried the car and I drove off to contend once again with the Holland Tunnel traffic.
Thinking my battery was being discharged by the cooling fans I kept the revs up and we once again creeped down the ramps to the main tunnel entry plaza. Got on the plaza and again the car died. Damn, this Ferrari thing is getting ridiculous.
I started pushing the car to a gas station that was right there and some guy appeared out of the traffic jam and gave me a hand and disappeared. Some other fellow was standing by watching us while eating gas station quickie mart snacks and asked me what happened. (And "Where do you take one of those, the dealer? Do you have a specific mechanic? Etc.) I said the car died. I said something along the lines of, "Why are you standing there," and he said he worked at the used car dealer next to the gas station. I asked if they had a jump box as I thought maybe I could just juice up the battery a bit. They drove over with cables and a Toyota.
Starter motor turned the car over but it wouldn't start. I called AAA. After a litany of; "If you are on the NJ Turnpike press 1, if you are on the Garden State Parkway press 2, if you are in Essex County press 3 , etc., on and on, eventually they said it would be 90 minutes.
I called my next breakdown number after AAA, Tom Yang. "It could be a lot of things."
I said maybe my new electric fuel pump had stopped as I didn't hear it in the car wash when the car died.
He said "Maybe, or something with the points."
I said "I got a Pertronix electric ignition so I wouldn't have problems with the points."
"Oh, that's something, I remember hearing that Pertronix doesn't like less then 12 volts," said Tom.
Waited a half an hour more, ate some salty (and stale) Quickie Mart snacks and decided to see if the car would start. I heard the fuel pump when I turned the key, that's good. Car started right up. Called AAA and canceled the tow and drove through the tunnel and back to my garage. Noticed I had a message on the cel phone which must have come in when I was talking to Tom. It was AAA, they couldn't find a tow truck to take the Ferrari. Nice.
From the web:
"The tech support guy at Pertronix told me that almost all complaints they receive are related to voltage issues."
So there you go, now you know not to get a Pertronix system.
Best,
Yale
"Who told you..." Ridiculously long.
"Who told you..." Ridiculously long.
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
Hi Yale:
And I was just thinking about getting another Pertronic system!
If your electric fuel pump wasn't working, it is something more than the ignition. Sounds a lot like a battery problem, except for not starting when jumped.
Good luck with the continuing adventures. And my sympathy- I had several cars with a steady seguence of issues. And you are having more than your fair share.
And by the way - what did the problem turn out to be when you drove back from Tom Yangs party?
Cheers
Warren
And I was just thinking about getting another Pertronic system!
If your electric fuel pump wasn't working, it is something more than the ignition. Sounds a lot like a battery problem, except for not starting when jumped.
Good luck with the continuing adventures. And my sympathy- I had several cars with a steady seguence of issues. And you are having more than your fair share.
And by the way - what did the problem turn out to be when you drove back from Tom Yangs party?
Cheers
Warren
330 GT Series II sn 10069
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Rudy van Daalen Wetters
- Posts: 1206
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm
I converted my GTE to a Crane Fireball XR700 system and have been very pleased with it. So far very reliable, car runs superb, always starts right up no matter what the conditions may be. Highly recommend.
No Quickie Marts in California, a good thing.
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
No Quickie Marts in California, a good thing.
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Yale,
Great read - it refreshed certain feelings I had when I've had my own 'Ferrari issues'. I'm sorry you are still having frustrating issues with your car. On the other hand, at least you are driving it!
Someday soon I'll get mine back - Francois apparently dropped in a nice red seat to complement my tan interior for me to use while my driver's side seat foam is replaced.
Regards,
Art S.
Great read - it refreshed certain feelings I had when I've had my own 'Ferrari issues'. I'm sorry you are still having frustrating issues with your car. On the other hand, at least you are driving it!
Someday soon I'll get mine back - Francois apparently dropped in a nice red seat to complement my tan interior for me to use while my driver's side seat foam is replaced.
Regards,
Art S.
1965 330 2+2 series 2 7919
It really looks like there is a generic problem with replacement parts, if I understand Toms description right. I have (so far) had 2- just installed -replacement parts fail. And it is not just Ferrari. The early Ford V-8 club is having the same problem. For a while NOS parts were available, but not now. And the replacement parts, even if they do fit, are often not suitable for service. I bought a new waterpump from NAPA; it watered the street and engine compartment - returned it and installed a second one. Same thing! And I get the the same story from other clubs..tyang wrote:Hi Warren,And by the way - what did the problem turn out to be when you drove back from Tom Yangs party?
The problem Yale had were a second set of front wheel bearings failed.
Tom
The only way to fight back is to post on sites like this - for example the 330 water pump replacement kits should be boycotted. As my Mechanic said - "they are junk". The rubber boot had failed. Maybe the replacement wheel bearing need to be blacklisted also, if they are replacement parts rather than NOS.
That creates another problem - where to get good parts. I have no satisfactory suggestion - my waterpump issue was solved by using an industral seal, and with a little bit of custom machining it is now in place, but not leaking, at least yet.
Cheers
Warren[/i]
330 GT Series II sn 10069
Took the car out again on Sunday, (he'll never learn,) and there were no issues, other then my passenger who was riding in it for the first time, commenting on how loud the car was and how much you smelled the exhaust at stop lights when the windows were up. Anyone else, (who drives where there are stop lights), have this experience? Seemed to me it was more noticeable at the end of the trip then at the beginning but that could be psychological.
Regarding Saturdays fun times, Brian Vignale, who works on the car these days, thought that after two idle months, a 90 minute drive was not enough to fully restore the battery. So maybe it isn't fully a Pertronix fault.
Now on to Warren's question about parts and, in this case, bearings. The bearings that came out of my car two years ago say on them: "Japan PN NTN 4T362A. They were installed at Domenic's, an old style garage that was a Lancia dealer at one time and specializes in Italian cars. The owners also own a 330GT Series 2. In my Mercedes owning days I had heard that the person packing and installing your bearings for those, (in my case mid 80's cars), was very important.
Those bearings, two years ago, came from Partsource, who are in general more expensive then many of the other parts houses but actually send you the right thing the first time. At times, when I have bought from GT Car parts, they do have the best price when they have something, but have told me they had something which I needed the next day, I paid for Fed Ex and they never shipped it because either they forgot or didn't really have it. And buying from what was FAF, T Rutlands, they seem to keep sending me the wrong items. At first I thought that was inexperienced staff but then even Ted sent me the wrong thing. Anyway I don't have the bearings that Domenics installed, but I do remember they came in a blue un-branded box.
Vignale said he gets bearings from a general bearing supplier so well see how well that works. When the bearings failed after the Tom 2 party Francois told Tom one of the bearings could have gotten a flat spot from the rough NYC streets. ("Who told you you could have that car in NY City?!!?!") I will say that the first time I had problems with the bearings I felt a rubbing sensation through the steering wheel. This time riding back from Mike's place with Kerry we hear a BANG!! and a bit later another BANG!! Like a suspension member had snapped. Kerry originally thought it was the wheels, loosely moving on the threads.
Brian said only one front bearing had been destroyed but he replaced both. When at Domenic's both front bearings were bad. For those who know as little as I, the rear bearings are constantly oiled (by the diff?) and so don't seem to fail.
Since this is such a short entry from me I should add that on Saturday, the car wash I went to was in one of the worst neighborhoods I had ever been in with the Ferrari. It had urban NJ car theft, drugs, guns and nastiness wrought all over it. The car, between a couple of more prosaic makes, was attracting more attention then I would have liked. I wasn't feeling too comfortable when some white guy who had all the trademarks of being a serious drug user came up and said "I didn't realize what this was at first until I saw the badge. What a beautiful car, the design is so subtle, not at all what you would expect from a Ferrari."
Reporting from the front.
Yale
Regarding Saturdays fun times, Brian Vignale, who works on the car these days, thought that after two idle months, a 90 minute drive was not enough to fully restore the battery. So maybe it isn't fully a Pertronix fault.
Now on to Warren's question about parts and, in this case, bearings. The bearings that came out of my car two years ago say on them: "Japan PN NTN 4T362A. They were installed at Domenic's, an old style garage that was a Lancia dealer at one time and specializes in Italian cars. The owners also own a 330GT Series 2. In my Mercedes owning days I had heard that the person packing and installing your bearings for those, (in my case mid 80's cars), was very important.
Those bearings, two years ago, came from Partsource, who are in general more expensive then many of the other parts houses but actually send you the right thing the first time. At times, when I have bought from GT Car parts, they do have the best price when they have something, but have told me they had something which I needed the next day, I paid for Fed Ex and they never shipped it because either they forgot or didn't really have it. And buying from what was FAF, T Rutlands, they seem to keep sending me the wrong items. At first I thought that was inexperienced staff but then even Ted sent me the wrong thing. Anyway I don't have the bearings that Domenics installed, but I do remember they came in a blue un-branded box.
Vignale said he gets bearings from a general bearing supplier so well see how well that works. When the bearings failed after the Tom 2 party Francois told Tom one of the bearings could have gotten a flat spot from the rough NYC streets. ("Who told you you could have that car in NY City?!!?!") I will say that the first time I had problems with the bearings I felt a rubbing sensation through the steering wheel. This time riding back from Mike's place with Kerry we hear a BANG!! and a bit later another BANG!! Like a suspension member had snapped. Kerry originally thought it was the wheels, loosely moving on the threads.
Brian said only one front bearing had been destroyed but he replaced both. When at Domenic's both front bearings were bad. For those who know as little as I, the rear bearings are constantly oiled (by the diff?) and so don't seem to fail.
Since this is such a short entry from me I should add that on Saturday, the car wash I went to was in one of the worst neighborhoods I had ever been in with the Ferrari. It had urban NJ car theft, drugs, guns and nastiness wrought all over it. The car, between a couple of more prosaic makes, was attracting more attention then I would have liked. I wasn't feeling too comfortable when some white guy who had all the trademarks of being a serious drug user came up and said "I didn't realize what this was at first until I saw the badge. What a beautiful car, the design is so subtle, not at all what you would expect from a Ferrari."
Reporting from the front.
Yale
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
I'm sure there are engineers out there more capable of explaining this, but I also feel front bearings withstand a lot more stress from absorbing initial impacts and lateral stresses from turning wheels.Brian said only one front bearing had been destroyed but he replaced both. When at Domenic's both front bearings were bad. For those who know as little as I, the rear bearings are constantly oiled (by the diff?) and so don't seem to fail.
There's something about living in a place like NYC that forces you to "press the flesh" unlike other cities in the world. Good or bad, it teaches you something, and here's a prime example. Never judge a book by its cover!Since this is such a short entry from me I should add that on Saturday, the car wash I went to was in one of the worst neighborhoods I had ever been in with the Ferrari. It had urban NJ car theft, drugs, guns and nastiness wrought all over it. The car, between a couple of more prosaic makes, was attracting more attention then I would have liked. I wasn't feeling too comfortable when some white guy who had all the trademarks of being a serious drug user came up and said "I didn't realize what this was at first until I saw the badge. What a beautiful car, the design is so subtle, not at all what you would expect from a Ferrari."
So Yale, have you forgiven your Ferrari for almost stranding you on Saturday?
Yale's car is definitely like a supermodel girlfriend. It makes him feel great knowing he has one, but there are times when he just wants to kill her!
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Interesting ghetto experience, yale. I've had two or three similar here in Dallas...threatening-looking guys come up and then make incredible comments you would never expect from them.
IMO, Ferrari of Atlanta is a source for quality wearout-type parts like wheel bearings, but $$$.
IMO, Ferrari of Atlanta is a source for quality wearout-type parts like wheel bearings, but $$$.
Current: 1983 308 GTS
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
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steve lapp
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:48 am
- Location: Ontario, Canada
bearings
I suppose since I am a mechanical engineer, my obligation is to respond on wheel bearings.
The tire absorbs the worst of the shock to wheel bearings, so a rough road in itself will not cause a bearing to fail. It also seems unlikely that they would fail after what are probably not that many hours of use. I would suggest that more likely they received damage on installation though hammer blows that marked the races, or the spacers and fit in the hub and axle were such that the bearings had axial preloads that they are not designed to have. The spacers in the 330 fonrt hubs and bearing dimensions must be exact, or the bearings will have axial preloads, and that definitely means reduced hours of operation before bearing failure.
When I got my 330 two years ago the front wheels had quite a bit of play. I replaced the front wheel bearings and made sure they ran freely once together. The interesting part was the removed bearings were likely original with their beautiful rivteted brass ball cages. These original bearings with 125,000 km on them ran beautifully smoothly, they had just developed a significant amount of clearance through wear, an unusual mode of failure for a bearing. I scoured the bearing catalogs to find equivalent specification bearings, but to the best of what I could reaearch, they are custom manufactured for the Ferrari size in the 330. I kept notes (in garage at the moment) on the replacement part # and make if anyone wants it.
The double ball row design is part of how ferrari kept rolling resistance to a minimum...ever notice how easily the ferrari rolls on a flat floor!.
Best overheard comment as I walked away from the car one night at a home depot, they didn't see me in the dark, "Holy fuck, it's a Ferrari"
cheers
The tire absorbs the worst of the shock to wheel bearings, so a rough road in itself will not cause a bearing to fail. It also seems unlikely that they would fail after what are probably not that many hours of use. I would suggest that more likely they received damage on installation though hammer blows that marked the races, or the spacers and fit in the hub and axle were such that the bearings had axial preloads that they are not designed to have. The spacers in the 330 fonrt hubs and bearing dimensions must be exact, or the bearings will have axial preloads, and that definitely means reduced hours of operation before bearing failure.
When I got my 330 two years ago the front wheels had quite a bit of play. I replaced the front wheel bearings and made sure they ran freely once together. The interesting part was the removed bearings were likely original with their beautiful rivteted brass ball cages. These original bearings with 125,000 km on them ran beautifully smoothly, they had just developed a significant amount of clearance through wear, an unusual mode of failure for a bearing. I scoured the bearing catalogs to find equivalent specification bearings, but to the best of what I could reaearch, they are custom manufactured for the Ferrari size in the 330. I kept notes (in garage at the moment) on the replacement part # and make if anyone wants it.
The double ball row design is part of how ferrari kept rolling resistance to a minimum...ever notice how easily the ferrari rolls on a flat floor!.
Best overheard comment as I walked away from the car one night at a home depot, they didn't see me in the dark, "Holy fuck, it's a Ferrari"
cheers
Steve Lapp
Ontario Canada
2013 Nissan Leaf, 2002 Prius, 56 Healey 100-4, 74 BMW 2002, 330 GT 2+2 s/n 6241, 54 Dodge M152 (listed by decreasing fuel economy)
Ontario Canada
2013 Nissan Leaf, 2002 Prius, 56 Healey 100-4, 74 BMW 2002, 330 GT 2+2 s/n 6241, 54 Dodge M152 (listed by decreasing fuel economy)
Steve,
Nice bearing dissertation! When you have a chance, please post any info you have on the originals, but do so in a new 'bearing' thread so we can find it at a later date ;)
I've had lots of interesting comments from others, similar to those described. One of my favorites was having a pretty young woman follow me into a local coffee shop, get my attention and tell me 'excuse me sir I just had to tell you that you have a beautiful car - very elegant'. Yale - she said this in spite of the paint!!! ;)
The other comments are older ladies complementing my nice 'Mustang' ...oh well.
Another memory was non-verbal. Back when the Markowskis were maintaining my car, each time I picked it up, I tried to turn the event into a long weekend in Vermont. The roads up there are perfect for my car! I remember I would drive quite fast between towns, slow down to the speed limit in the towns then accelerate again on the outskirts. During one such acceleration out of a little town, we had a guy step into the side of the road and give the thumbs up and wave as I went by - Mille Millia style.
Regards,
Art S.
Nice bearing dissertation! When you have a chance, please post any info you have on the originals, but do so in a new 'bearing' thread so we can find it at a later date ;)
I've had lots of interesting comments from others, similar to those described. One of my favorites was having a pretty young woman follow me into a local coffee shop, get my attention and tell me 'excuse me sir I just had to tell you that you have a beautiful car - very elegant'. Yale - she said this in spite of the paint!!! ;)
The other comments are older ladies complementing my nice 'Mustang' ...oh well.
Another memory was non-verbal. Back when the Markowskis were maintaining my car, each time I picked it up, I tried to turn the event into a long weekend in Vermont. The roads up there are perfect for my car! I remember I would drive quite fast between towns, slow down to the speed limit in the towns then accelerate again on the outskirts. During one such acceleration out of a little town, we had a guy step into the side of the road and give the thumbs up and wave as I went by - Mille Millia style.
Regards,
Art S.
1965 330 2+2 series 2 7919
A few years ago, I and my wife were driving the 330 on I 90 back to Seattle from Kerry's house. It was hot, we had the windows down, and were going
about 70. A pickup truck with 3 rough-looking characters drove right
beside the car only a couple of feet away. The driver turned his head to me
and shouted so that I could hear him quite clearly and distinctly:
Man, what a cool car!
about 70. A pickup truck with 3 rough-looking characters drove right
beside the car only a couple of feet away. The driver turned his head to me
and shouted so that I could hear him quite clearly and distinctly:
Man, what a cool car!
Lowell Brown
1966 Gold 330 2+2 Series II
1966 Gold 330 2+2 Series II
The failures in aftermarket bearings that I know about, assuming they are installed and lubed correctly, turned out to be heat treating problems. I have bent wheels, broken suspension components, and destroyed tires in a variety of cars, but the wheel bearings have always survived. Pittsburgh in the winter can compete with anybody on potholes. They fill up with water and look just like the wet road. Then you drop a wheel into a foot deep hole with sharp edges.
As to Arts suggestion - it sounds good if it could be worked out so that the new parts were made to the same specs as the original. The junk 330 water pump is being sold by Ferrari. When Charlie Pierson called Italy they informed him the kits were outsourced items.
Cheers
Warren
As to Arts suggestion - it sounds good if it could be worked out so that the new parts were made to the same specs as the original. The junk 330 water pump is being sold by Ferrari. When Charlie Pierson called Italy they informed him the kits were outsourced items.
Cheers
Warren
330 GT Series II sn 10069
hydrocarbon festival
most people forget what "motoring in a sporting manner" means. My wife complains vociferously about all of the fragrances that accompany the Ferrari.
Most vintage cars give off more vapors sitting in a garage without the engine running, than a modern car at full chat. I find that my passengers either embrace the moment or demand that I repent and buy a Toyata Prius. In another lifetime I might by a Prius, but maybe not.
Most vintage cars give off more vapors sitting in a garage without the engine running, than a modern car at full chat. I find that my passengers either embrace the moment or demand that I repent and buy a Toyata Prius. In another lifetime I might by a Prius, but maybe not.
69 365 gt 2+2, 12659
98 M3, 02 Porsche 996
98 550 Maranello
98 M3, 02 Porsche 996
98 550 Maranello