Laguna Seca/Classiche entry

[Bryan P]

Tom - enjoyed this entry and agree wholeheartedly w/ your observations re: Concorso.

BTW, regarding the Classiche entry - the car on the lift is not 0572M or even a 750 Monza. It appears to be a 500 TRC.

[tyang]

My mistake!!! I'll make the appropriate changes. Honestly, I was more concerned with getting some answers than looking at the car!

I'm really saddend by what I saw at Concorso. There is no place for the owner of a Vintage Ferrari anymore!

With the complexity of the modern Ferraris, I can see how the attraction to these cars is turning away from tinkering with them towards owning and living the lifestyle the cars have to offer. Owning a Ferrari today seems more about branding than about driving and working on a great sports car.

Tom

[jcwconsult]

Dear Tom,

I think you have a good point with the lifestyle/branding reasons that motivate many people to buy a current Ferrari.

That said, if I were rich, a new 612 would look quite nice in my garage as my daily driver - next to my 365. Alas, the daily drivers in our household are a Mazda 3 and a BMW 3 Series - not bad, but a "cut below" a 612.

[whturner]

My mistake!!! I'll make the appropriate changes. Honestly, I was more concerned with getting some answers than looking at the car!

I'm really saddend by what I saw at Concorso. There is no place for the owner of a Vintage Ferrari anymore!

With the complexity of the modern Ferraris, I can see how the attraction to these cars is turning away from tinkering with them towards owning and living the lifestyle the cars have to offer. Owning a Ferrari today seems more about branding than about driving and working on a great sports car.

Tom

Hi Tom

That is just natural - and is universally true. People who have an appreciation for history will collect historical objects, even if they also have the latest and greatest for everyday use. But they will always be in the minority.
How many people would rather have a new Mustang rather than some old Ford. And it applies to all kinds of collectables. I have a small gun collection - vintage US and British military rifles, but no new ones. Most of the other gun guys are more interexted in the high tech guns (plastic toys to a few of us, who like polished grained walnut, blued and polished metal)

Cheers
Warren

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

I am already 'rich' because I have a GTE. A 599 just can't duplicate the experience for me. Driven them all. Oh well.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[tyang]

The modern cars do everything better than our old Ferraris, but if someone wants something that's faster, or handles better than an old Ferrari, then any Acura will fit them better, but that's not the point. The other thing that irks me is this obsession with how much something costs. After the question of what model Ferrari I have, the next question is usually "what's it worth?" Is that all people care about? (Don't answer that question)

I guess I would have to agree with Warren that we are a minority of collectors or enthusiasts that appreciate what certain things other people don't get, except for its value. I just wish all the other factors around us wouldn't make it that much harder to be enthusiastic about what we love!

I might be too pragmatic to drive a 612 daily. It's Italian, I can't expect it to be as reliable a Honda!!!

Tom

[330GT]

... After the question of what model Ferrari I have, the next question is usually "what's it worth?" ...Tom

When I'm in the 308, I answer that it's less than a new fully equipped SUV!

[tim]

Greetings... It's not just Concorso that is loosing its old crocks. I've been attending the Monterey weekend since the 9th annual (I think thjis year was 34) and the picture on the street has changed as well. You would see all sorts of "real" sports cars everywhere. Healeys, TR's, Alfas, Porsches, etc. I stay on Ocean Ave in Carmel and the trafffic was all new stuff. I saw one Healey and two MG's. I tried to hold up my part driving a 61 Morgan but the cars that started all of this are gone. I think the cost of the weekend may have something to do with it. We look at it as one weekend a year to spend silly. I'm going to Coronado in November and we'll see if it is any different. By the way, Tom, isn't the Wilburns a great place for a car party. I know the Wilburn family through Morgan ownership and John and Lynn hold a BBQ during our annual MogWest in July. Johns dad has a 308 GT4 and used to have a 330 GT that wore a Morgan +12 Club decal. Tim

[Michael Bayer]

I couldn't agree more with where this thread is going. There simply is less and less a place for guys like us in the new Ferrari "lifestyle" community (same for guys on the Daytona Registry, the GTC4 Registry or the Dino Registry to name just a few). The same thing happened with the bigbucksification of the American Hot Rod community. The "wrench on 'em, drive 'em, wrench on 'em" crowd became odd men out to the huge number of new "package hot rod" guys. As a result many of the old hands have since reformed into the Rat Rod Community. We ought to consider doing the same. Define an objective, write a set of judging rules to shape the participation accordingly, and ask the other communities who think like us (and there are two I know of first hand because I participate in them) to join us once a year for under the car fellowship. I for one had more fun in the three hours I spent with many of you at last year's Monterrey Tom Yang reunion than the three days I spent at the FCA National meet. We need to do it guys. M

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

I think Michael has defined it a bit better for us with the "under the car fellowship" program. Every drop of gearbox oil on our foreheads is the proof of our Baptism into the fellowship. Each member should be able to quote at least three brands of hand cleaner or they are out.

All kidding aside, I like Michael's idea. We are different and should be recognized as such.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[Bryan P]

I am completely on board (but stuff tends to fall directly in my eye and miss my forhead when I'm under the car).

The recent story of my friend Bill Bowdish deciding to sell his queen mother got me thinking the way Michael is. Bill finished about 6 years of wrenching on his queen this past year. He hit the show circuit and is frankly over what he calls "PP&E"; Posing, Parking & Eating. With no more resotration work left to do on his car, he has been doing more events which tend to revolve around the Ferrari "lifestyle" community as Michael so aptly puts it. In short, Bill is over it, selling the queen and moving on to another project, which hopefully will be another vintage Ferrari. While I'm disappointed over his decision, I completely understand his reasoning.

I have to admit that after the FCA National last year, I was suffering from my own concours fatigue so I went temporarily insane and bought an MGA on ebay. I have had more fun/therapy working on that piece of junk over the last year; put on a rebuilt MGB head, rebuilt carbs, electronic ignition, brakes, etc. More importantly the "under the car fellowship" is alove and well in MG-land; there isn't a single guy in the MG club who doesn't do his own wrenching - and given the really crappy build quality of the cars, we never run out of projects. No one drives an MGB to make a fashion/lifestyle point (unless he's just strange).

Let's do it.

[whturner]

Hi Guys:

There have been several issues raised - but all revolve around a central theme. The old (hands-on) car shows - are being replaced by new high tech cars shows.
It is happening in the entire collectors car world. Some of this is simple demographics, we who remember and appreciate the cars which could be wrenched and maintained by thier owner are getting old, and losing the energy to do as much, or dying off. Speaking for myself, at age 76 I can't do as much. (Also, much of the hands-on work was because we couldn't afford to pay someone to do it). And don't overlook the fact that very few cars made in the last couple of decades can be worked on to any substantial degree unless hooked up to a computer. If my car quit by the side of the road, I used to be able to open the hood and fix it, or at least know what the problem is. Can't do that today.

As far as hotrodding is concerned, when the Prowler came out, that was officially the end of the hot-rod era - a MASS PRODUCTION HOTROD???. A complete contradiction in terms. Show cars are assembled like a Heath-kit. Where is the kind of creativity that, for example, prompted one rodder to rotate his flathead Ford engine backward and use the exhaust ports as intakes? Or build a sport racer using a 2 stroke Mercury outboard motor?

I totally agree that there needs to be a group separate from the high tech era, but I don't know just how to define it. I have nothing against the High Tech guys, but we have no real interests in common. In a sense, the Antique Car Club of America kind of offers that opportunity, (you will see a lot of old cars) but it is too inclusive. Tom Yangs small group may be something of a model for that type of association. Maybe we can kind of fall into what Michael is suggesting - even without formal rules.

Cheers
Warren

[Michael Bayer]

Think about the numbers. The cars we are principally involved in are the very late 50s to early 70s hand made production cars. Arbitrarily, I will say from the PF Coupes to the 365BBs, roughly serial numbers from 1000 to 17000. That is a total run of 8,000 cars (within this definition, whole blocks of cars are now relegated to garage jewelry i.e. the SWBs, 275s, GTOs etc). With a 20% mortality rate, this total nets down to 6,400 world wide survivors. Assuming the US has 60% of that (again a very high side guess) puts 3,800 cars ashore. That number is absolutely fixed for all time. What has the Ferrari added to it since in factory production? I don't have the numbers of 3XX cars at hand, but let's say +15,000. Last year alone, Ferrari made and sold 5,700 cars. So now every year, the number of new Ferraris in the US is greater then the entire US population of "our" cars. Compound that over a decade and our survivors are so far on the margin of this tidal wave its hard to find them. So now to the modern Ferrari Lifestyle": Why in heaven's name should it reflect our little and increasingly microscopic fringe? This is a volunteer sport/hobby and in such organizations, the majority rules. That new majority has a vastly different interest than ours, its not wrong or bad, its just different. We need our own event: Open hoods, greasy foreheads and, as any minority, support (and comfort) in numbers. Let's do it gentlemen.

[Michael Bayer]

I meant to write about 35,000 3XX cars made and to have added that Ferrari has make at least 25,000 cars since 2000. M

[whturner]

Think about the numbers. The cars we are principally involved in are the very late 50s to early 70s hand made production cars. ...... That new majority has a vastly different interest than ours, its not wrong or bad, its just different. We need our own event: Open hoods, greasy foreheads and, as any minority, support (and comfort) in numbers. Let's do it gentlemen.

Hi Micheal:

Your numbers state the case very well. The analysis also applies to the mass produced, high volume, production cars - more were produced, but the survival rate for an old Ford, Chevy, etc. is tiny.
As Micheal points out "Compound that over a decade and our survivors are so far on the margin of this tidal wave its hard to find them." (I Love that phrase)
That is why there are car clubs for specific segments like the Early Ford V-8 Club, the Model A Club etc. A Ferrari Club which includes all years (past and future) is too inclusive, in exactly the same way a "Chevy Club" would be. Even a distinctive model like a Corvette would be lost in the crowd.
The question is - just how to define the group. Do we already have the seed(s) of this segmentation with our various forums?

Cheers
Warren