Tom,
I too was disappointed in Concorso Italiano. A dirth of our era of cars, as well as notables, such as the judges of our cars and independent mechanics who work on them. Several years ago, when Concorso was still at Quail Lodge, I remember an independent garage had a tent with a monster old V12 on a stand, a 55 gal water drum next to it, and straight exhaust pipes. He would periodically start the engine, and the entire crowd "stood at attention." It was more entertaing than all that went on at Concorso this year. For me it's going to be the Quail show and Laguna seca in the future, and to heck with Concorso.
Jim
Concorso Italiano
Concorso Italiano
'67 330 GTS
s/n 10567
s/n 10567
Hi Jim,
I too will be making Quail my choice of events, but where does the average Vintage Ferrari Owner go to show and share his enthusiasm for his Ferrari? If Quail is the place to be on a Friday, then a regular guy with an old Ferrari will not have a place to show his vintage machine. The irony was Concorso's program cover showed the interior of a Cal Spyder, when it obviously has moved on to the newer cars.
Oh where oh where will we go?
Tom
I too will be making Quail my choice of events, but where does the average Vintage Ferrari Owner go to show and share his enthusiasm for his Ferrari? If Quail is the place to be on a Friday, then a regular guy with an old Ferrari will not have a place to show his vintage machine. The irony was Concorso's program cover showed the interior of a Cal Spyder, when it obviously has moved on to the newer cars.
Oh where oh where will we go?
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
An Alternative?
I showed the 330 GTC at Quail this year, John showed his PF Coupe just across the way and 22 people showed Series I PF Cabriiolets right next door. There were many other vintage Ferraris in other corrals. This is where our cars are and also where the people who love and support them are.
I also showed the car on Saturday afternoon after being at the track, at the Khakis all Ferrari concours in Carmel. The older cars are very well received there (I won an award) and it's a nice little catered event. We could make it a gathering place during the weekend to show the older cars.
Chuck
I also showed the car on Saturday afternoon after being at the track, at the Khakis all Ferrari concours in Carmel. The older cars are very well received there (I won an award) and it's a nice little catered event. We could make it a gathering place during the weekend to show the older cars.
Chuck
1967 330 GTC
S/N: 10539
S/N: 10539
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David Booth
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 2:23 am
- Location: Vista, California
- Contact:
The vintage V-12 on a steel test stand that was fired up at Concorso a few years back was in the hands of our own esteemed T. Shaughnessy. Leave it to Mr. S. to simultaneously enthrall and horrify alternate segments of an audience, whether it's Concorso Italiano, the Quail, or wherever. It's what he does and why we embrace him as one of our own.
I know what Tom Y. is talking about, since we had this selfsame conversation live Saturday evening on the way to the Len Miller memorial party. I get what he's saying, but let's face it guys. Just as any Joe off the street can't buy one of these cars for $3,500 any more, the events where we bring them are themselves something of a victim of their own success and the escalating value of the machines we're showing.
The issue Tom raises is a little like the old Groucho Marx line about not wanting to be a member of any club that would admit someone like us.
We're passionate about cars that were produced in very small numbers, and we've generally been more hands-on because we haven't generally thrown money at their upkeep for our own personal reasons - which has set us apart from certain other groups of Ferrari owners - older cars and newer.
But like the meanest dinghy in the harbor, the value of our cars has risen with the tide. And since regular guys like us can't really afford the price of admission to our part of the Vintage Ferrari neighborhood any more, I think we have to face up to the fact that guys that used to sort of edge into the vintage Ferrari community with grease under their fingernails and applicable knowledge of how rebuilding a Chevy straight six relates to a Ferrari SOHC twelve just aren't going to be coming through the door any more.
The reason is simple. Those guys can't afford the price of admission. Let alone the four hundred bucks I willingly plunked down for a pair of NOS front markers for my first-hundred SII Cab at Concorso on Saturday. I'd been looking for a pair of those lights for years. And I barely hesitated before reaching into my left-front pocket for the modest wad of Dead Presidents I bring to this event every year in anticipation of just such a find.
So those salt-of-the-earth types we all identify with get pushed into Alfas or oddball Masers or Lambos or American Muscle or somewhere else, while "our" Ferraris are more coddled and cosseted and seen less and less because they're getting to the (price) point where they equate to a pretty nice house in large parts of the country.
The days when some of them got stuck in a friend's shed and when retrieved a few months or years later, had a leghorn for a temporary resident are just gone. Tempus fuggin' fugits as they say in New Yawk.
But to Tom's original point: where do we Vintage Ferrari enthusiasts display our cars? For me, the answer is simple: same damn place they've been shown up 'til now. If they don't merit an invitation to Pebble Beach or the Quail, what does that really matter? If they're the only example of their model at someplace like Concorso, does that really make it not worth the effort to bring the car out?
Shouldn't these cars, and our enthusiasm for them, be reason enough to bring them to these events, even if they're the only one there?
I know what Tom Y. is talking about, since we had this selfsame conversation live Saturday evening on the way to the Len Miller memorial party. I get what he's saying, but let's face it guys. Just as any Joe off the street can't buy one of these cars for $3,500 any more, the events where we bring them are themselves something of a victim of their own success and the escalating value of the machines we're showing.
The issue Tom raises is a little like the old Groucho Marx line about not wanting to be a member of any club that would admit someone like us.
We're passionate about cars that were produced in very small numbers, and we've generally been more hands-on because we haven't generally thrown money at their upkeep for our own personal reasons - which has set us apart from certain other groups of Ferrari owners - older cars and newer.
But like the meanest dinghy in the harbor, the value of our cars has risen with the tide. And since regular guys like us can't really afford the price of admission to our part of the Vintage Ferrari neighborhood any more, I think we have to face up to the fact that guys that used to sort of edge into the vintage Ferrari community with grease under their fingernails and applicable knowledge of how rebuilding a Chevy straight six relates to a Ferrari SOHC twelve just aren't going to be coming through the door any more.
The reason is simple. Those guys can't afford the price of admission. Let alone the four hundred bucks I willingly plunked down for a pair of NOS front markers for my first-hundred SII Cab at Concorso on Saturday. I'd been looking for a pair of those lights for years. And I barely hesitated before reaching into my left-front pocket for the modest wad of Dead Presidents I bring to this event every year in anticipation of just such a find.
So those salt-of-the-earth types we all identify with get pushed into Alfas or oddball Masers or Lambos or American Muscle or somewhere else, while "our" Ferraris are more coddled and cosseted and seen less and less because they're getting to the (price) point where they equate to a pretty nice house in large parts of the country.
The days when some of them got stuck in a friend's shed and when retrieved a few months or years later, had a leghorn for a temporary resident are just gone. Tempus fuggin' fugits as they say in New Yawk.
But to Tom's original point: where do we Vintage Ferrari enthusiasts display our cars? For me, the answer is simple: same damn place they've been shown up 'til now. If they don't merit an invitation to Pebble Beach or the Quail, what does that really matter? If they're the only example of their model at someplace like Concorso, does that really make it not worth the effort to bring the car out?
Shouldn't these cars, and our enthusiasm for them, be reason enough to bring them to these events, even if they're the only one there?
1960 SII PF cabriolet #2105GT
1963 250GTE #4799GT with 330 America engine #5033GT
"...Luigi follow only the Ferraris.."
1963 250GTE #4799GT with 330 America engine #5033GT
"...Luigi follow only the Ferraris.."
Hi David,
As always, well put.
I am very fortunate that I now get to see quite a bit of Vintage Ferraris on a weekly basis, and I try my best to share that with everyone on this website. One of the main reasons I go all the way to California every year is to meet with the enthusiasts and owners that I normally wouldn't see the rest of the year. It's great to catch up with you, and the many friends I've made out there once a year, but I also like meeting new people that I would normally not run into through my website. I love meeting the long time Ferrari owner that remembers these cars when they were new, or simply worn out used cars. These guys are often not connected to the Internet, and still bring their cars to shows to meet like minded individuals. Perhaps there are other factors involved in their diminishing numbers, but I wish it wasn't all disappearing before I have a chance to enjoy that part of this hobby! The other frustration is also the people that are replacing the old timers are nothing like the "hands on" indiviuals I love hanging out with!
Tom
As always, well put.
I am very fortunate that I now get to see quite a bit of Vintage Ferraris on a weekly basis, and I try my best to share that with everyone on this website. One of the main reasons I go all the way to California every year is to meet with the enthusiasts and owners that I normally wouldn't see the rest of the year. It's great to catch up with you, and the many friends I've made out there once a year, but I also like meeting new people that I would normally not run into through my website. I love meeting the long time Ferrari owner that remembers these cars when they were new, or simply worn out used cars. These guys are often not connected to the Internet, and still bring their cars to shows to meet like minded individuals. Perhaps there are other factors involved in their diminishing numbers, but I wish it wasn't all disappearing before I have a chance to enjoy that part of this hobby! The other frustration is also the people that are replacing the old timers are nothing like the "hands on" indiviuals I love hanging out with!
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
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Tom Wilson
- Posts: 1152
- Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:01 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Contact:
If you are able to bring your car to Carmel or any other show, there are often gatherings outside of the shows in the parking lot. At the Quail, the local Ferrari Club has a section of the parking lot for the cars (though primarily newer cars) and there was a nice lineup of cars on the left side of the driveway, though I do not know who organized it or even if it was organized. If we coordinate through sites like this, we may provide a grouping of nice vintage cars that would be fun and draw attention to the hobby.
I think David went on a bit.
My summary is this:
The lack of cars older cars at the concorso was simply a statistical anomoly. (yes - spelling, I know).
Cars are now possibly five places on Friday (track, concorso, concorso parking lot, quail and quail parking lot). Three years ago, the last time I was there,I think there was only four GTE's at Concorso and Quail was in it's first year. Much larger concentration of cars in the one spot.
Additionally, add the David "meanest Boat" theory, and alot of us have the cars but are now aware of the "value" and want the car looking a little better before showing in public. Last, most of us have done the "carmel" show thing in an old car at this point, and the impala simply is more practical.
I think next year will bring a few more out. I'll see you then.
Also, anyone see Dick Smith this year in the Blue GTE. He was absent from both the party and the concosro and I was wonding about his health.
LAter.
My summary is this:
The lack of cars older cars at the concorso was simply a statistical anomoly. (yes - spelling, I know).
Cars are now possibly five places on Friday (track, concorso, concorso parking lot, quail and quail parking lot). Three years ago, the last time I was there,I think there was only four GTE's at Concorso and Quail was in it's first year. Much larger concentration of cars in the one spot.
Additionally, add the David "meanest Boat" theory, and alot of us have the cars but are now aware of the "value" and want the car looking a little better before showing in public. Last, most of us have done the "carmel" show thing in an old car at this point, and the impala simply is more practical.
I think next year will bring a few more out. I'll see you then.
Also, anyone see Dick Smith this year in the Blue GTE. He was absent from both the party and the concosro and I was wonding about his health.
LAter.
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Rudy van Daalen Wetters
- Posts: 1206
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm
I am planning to attend David's creative writing classes.
It's an interesting evolution of how economic value changes things. When I was about six years old, my father and mother drove their own Bugattis to an annual meet held at Fred Treat's estate on Mandeville Canyon off Sunset here in LA. About 100 Bugattis would show up to this event every year with young people like Bob Estes, Ken Miles, Otto Zipper attending. It was quite a party and I have miles of home movies from the old Kodak camera. Back then, the cars were affordable and driven to this event. Trailers were scoffed at. The median owner's age was about 30 to 35 and most everyone knew how to work on their own Bugatti. Well as you can imagine those days are a distant memory (save the Kodak movies). My mother recently attended a rare Bugatti owner's meeting here in LA where one Bugatti showed up on a trailer. The average age of the owner (still living) was in high 70's. The only thing that was double parked were the wheel chairs. Sad indeed.
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
It's an interesting evolution of how economic value changes things. When I was about six years old, my father and mother drove their own Bugattis to an annual meet held at Fred Treat's estate on Mandeville Canyon off Sunset here in LA. About 100 Bugattis would show up to this event every year with young people like Bob Estes, Ken Miles, Otto Zipper attending. It was quite a party and I have miles of home movies from the old Kodak camera. Back then, the cars were affordable and driven to this event. Trailers were scoffed at. The median owner's age was about 30 to 35 and most everyone knew how to work on their own Bugatti. Well as you can imagine those days are a distant memory (save the Kodak movies). My mother recently attended a rare Bugatti owner's meeting here in LA where one Bugatti showed up on a trailer. The average age of the owner (still living) was in high 70's. The only thing that was double parked were the wheel chairs. Sad indeed.
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Greetings... A friend of mine (575M, 275GTB, and 599 on order-maybe) often asks "how many of those people know Mr Ferraris first name?) I've also heard a rumor Concorso may be moving again next year. I heard somewhere on Carmel Vally Rd-just what those of us at the Quail need. Tim
1964 330GT 5769 -the big yellow taxi 61&66 Morgan +4's Daimler SP250 Turner 950S and some other dull stuff plus a brand Mercedes C300 4matic
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Rudy van Daalen Wetters
- Posts: 1206
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm
Perhaps Tom W. has a good start on this. My thought would be that we all meet at a certain time outside the Quail show first as a rendez-vous point. We then all caravan in together (a force to be reckoned with) and that way can park in the same area and commandeer our own space. Everyone goes in to the Quail show enjoys it and the food and all of us meet back at our 'command center' after lunch for our own get together. Tom's thursday night party now becomes the friday afternoon bash. Kerry could drop all the beer he wants with no damage. My brother and I could actually meet Tom Y. in person as well. We could even vote for the best car in our group or the like. Anyways, just a thought on how to get all of the 'under the car fellowship' together with their cars. We might even attract some other 'wrenchers' in the process.
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
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Tom Wilson
- Posts: 1152
- Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:01 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- Contact:
Rudy - Thanks for the props, but tell me more about Mr. Treats Bugatti gatherings! I grew up in Mandeville Canyon and never heard about this. I know about the Upper Mandeville Canyon Picnic (at which the Strawberry Alarm Clock played - If our parents only knew what "Incense, Peppermints" was really about...), kids parade and catching frogs at the Kaufman Ranch, but never Bugatti's. I guess I spent too much time at Paul Woudenberg and Phil Hill's house.
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David Booth
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 2:23 am
- Location: Vista, California
- Contact:
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mikewegener
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:10 am
- Location: El Mirage, CA
David - I thought that was a well thought through and nicely accentuated post. Please keep the merlot close to the keyboard at all times......David Booth wrote:Sorry I got a little carried away in my post above, guys. Blame the combination of a little too much Merlot and not quite enough solid food prior to seeing the thread...
I'd like to point out that many 'oddball' Maseratis come from a much older and equally storied marque when compared to Ferrari. I also personally feel theres no shame in getting 'pushed' into collecting Alfas due to budget constraints - in many ways, they are better cars to drive, with great histories and heritage.
I've also been told that Concorso at Quail originally began as a place for vintage Lamborghini owners to get together. Any other insights as to this?
I've also been told that Concorso at Quail originally began as a place for vintage Lamborghini owners to get together. Any other insights as to this?
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Tom Wilson
- Posts: 1152
- Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:01 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
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I cannot speak for Concorso, as I have not been there myself, but one thing I like about the Quail is that it is wife friendly. I advise my wife to avoid most of the Monterey events that I attend as they are too "gearheaded" for her. Somehow, the thought of spending an hour or so with a glass of wine discussing motor oil is a little overwhelming for her. However, a day spent looking at beautiful cars, tempered with wine, champagne, martini's, lamb, oysters, caviar, etc seems to work for her. I even will bow to 15 minutes of looking (and looking only!) at the diamond booth.
At the Quail, the owners of the cars are generally pretty easy to find and talk to. Once you get beyond "your car is beautiful" and show that you actually know what you are talking about, they really want to talk about the cars. As we are getting ready to do the big stuff on my GTE, we spent most of the show paint and leather shopping. It was interesting to hear how the owners chose the particular paint tint that was used or why they decided to make the seat panels flat instead of rounded. It was surprising to hear how much support I was getting for wanting to paint my car its original white (or Bianco, to be exact). Anyway, as this part of automobile restoration was fairly close to decorating, my wife really enjoyed meeting the other owners and participating in my hobby.
So, though I really enjoy "turning wrenches" with you guys; if we are going to get the budget we need to do so, we should also include the spouses from time to time.
At the Quail, the owners of the cars are generally pretty easy to find and talk to. Once you get beyond "your car is beautiful" and show that you actually know what you are talking about, they really want to talk about the cars. As we are getting ready to do the big stuff on my GTE, we spent most of the show paint and leather shopping. It was interesting to hear how the owners chose the particular paint tint that was used or why they decided to make the seat panels flat instead of rounded. It was surprising to hear how much support I was getting for wanting to paint my car its original white (or Bianco, to be exact). Anyway, as this part of automobile restoration was fairly close to decorating, my wife really enjoyed meeting the other owners and participating in my hobby.
So, though I really enjoy "turning wrenches" with you guys; if we are going to get the budget we need to do so, we should also include the spouses from time to time.