GTE
Re: GTE
http://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/ca ... 50GTE-2675Jim wrote:Check out Mike Sheehan's site tomorrow (ferraris-online.com): A GTE will be offered.
Nice move in price. The car was sold for $67k or so less than two years ago...
T308
1962 250 GT/E 3921, 1978 308 GTS 26845
Sorry, misread the notes "Greg Catabiano, NJ, was offered this car by a dealer in Houston, Tx for $49,000" Jan 2001.tyang wrote:No, Greg Catabiano never owned a GTE. He has a PF Coupe.Opps, Greg Catabiano then Craig Balaban of Long Island.
T308
Tom
My bad!
T308
1962 250 GT/E 3921, 1978 308 GTS 26845
Am I the only one wondering how many times it's had a complete engine overhaul in its 62.6K miles?!
Let's say somebody owns a vintage Ferrari and drives it every weekend. Never using it as a grocery getter. Putting some 7-10K on it a year. Following factory service schedule, what can one expect a stock engine to deliver?
Are there any high mileage cars?
Let's say somebody owns a vintage Ferrari and drives it every weekend. Never using it as a grocery getter. Putting some 7-10K on it a year. Following factory service schedule, what can one expect a stock engine to deliver?
Are there any high mileage cars?
I noticed that too. Who knows what a "Complete Engine Rebuild" means. I've seen some hack jobs done to these engines where the old valves were fitted, and poor fitting cranks gave some poor oil pressure. If the engine is claimed to be rebuilt, I would contact the engine builder, and ask them what exactly was done. Often times, an owner is too cheap to go the whole way with an engine rebuild, and insist the builder "just get it running," and use the builder's name to back up a "complete engine rebuild!"Am I the only one wondering how many times it's had a complete engine overhaul in its 62.6K miles?!
Let's say somebody owns a vintage Ferrari and drives it every weekend. Never using it as a grocery getter. Putting some 7-10K on it a year. Following factory service schedule, what can one expect a stock engine to deliver?
Are there any high mileage cars?
There are several weakenesses to the Ferrari V-12 engine that are addressed with the first engine rebuild. Bad valve guides and seats often cause these engines to smoke after 40-50K miles, but with the new guides, seats and seals, this is no longer an issue. Francois has had rebuilt engine with many more than 50K miles after its initial rebuild. I hope I get at least that much on my engine!
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Koll & Tom Y.,
There are several users on Fchat that have close 200,000 miles on their cars, a 246 Dino and a 330 GTC, the GTC has not been rebuilt and I think the Dino is still original as well. The users are John Corbani - Dino and Bob Zambelli - GTC.
So, with proper maintenance, I suspect the engines are quite robust.
Tom S.,
Can you provide more info on this?
Regards,
Art S.
PS. I'm probobly blind but, I didn't see the price, what are they asking?
There are several users on Fchat that have close 200,000 miles on their cars, a 246 Dino and a 330 GTC, the GTC has not been rebuilt and I think the Dino is still original as well. The users are John Corbani - Dino and Bob Zambelli - GTC.
So, with proper maintenance, I suspect the engines are quite robust.
Tom S.,
Can you provide more info on this?
Regards,
Art S.
PS. I'm probobly blind but, I didn't see the price, what are they asking?
1965 330 2+2 series 2 7919
Art: That's nice to know. My suspicion is that one way for an owner to justify the bump in the "value" of a car is to subject it to an "overhaul". It's nice to know that properly built and maintained - these are stout engines.
I'd rather see something like: " Like it or not, values are going up. This car is exactly as it was 15 years ago, but with another 30K on the clock and double the price. Proper maintenance by xxx shop was followed and documented. Runs great. PI welcome. You in?"
Yup Tom, I bet there is a lot of head scratching during PIs and what you're running across now.
I'd rather see something like: " Like it or not, values are going up. This car is exactly as it was 15 years ago, but with another 30K on the clock and double the price. Proper maintenance by xxx shop was followed and documented. Runs great. PI welcome. You in?"
Yup Tom, I bet there is a lot of head scratching during PIs and what you're running across now.
The engine on this cars suffered a catrophic failure recently (something to do with a holed piston), and needed a rebuild. Two questions arise, if the engine was "rebuilt" before, what caused it to fail so soon without the owner's neglect, and how good was the current "rebuild" to get this car immediately to market?
We have a four headlight 330 in Francois' shop that dropped a valve seat. The (new to Francois' shop) owner brought it in after hearing horrible noises from the engine. The only way to find out what was wrong was to pull the head off the cylinder with no compression to take a look. With the head off, we found a dropped valve seat. The correct, and prudent repair would have been to check all the valve seats, and probably replace all of them along with guides and seals. The "while you're in there" issue brings up the idea of a complete rebuild to keep any old valve seats from falling. We also know who had his hands in this engine the last time, and his mechanical work left a lot to be desired, especially after looking at the shape of some of the valves. Posing all these issues with the owner, he still decided to fix what was necessary to get this engine back together. What choice do we have but to do what the owner wants? Refusing to do the work for the owner causes us to have a car half apart at the shop, and an issue with the owner.
When this owner gets his car back, do you think he'll tell everyone Francois Sicard did the engine rebuild? When the next guy, who buys the car based on the knowledge that Francois "did the engine," finds another dropped valve seat, what do you think he'll think of Francois' work? It all gets so complicated when owners don't want to do things right!
Tom
We have a four headlight 330 in Francois' shop that dropped a valve seat. The (new to Francois' shop) owner brought it in after hearing horrible noises from the engine. The only way to find out what was wrong was to pull the head off the cylinder with no compression to take a look. With the head off, we found a dropped valve seat. The correct, and prudent repair would have been to check all the valve seats, and probably replace all of them along with guides and seals. The "while you're in there" issue brings up the idea of a complete rebuild to keep any old valve seats from falling. We also know who had his hands in this engine the last time, and his mechanical work left a lot to be desired, especially after looking at the shape of some of the valves. Posing all these issues with the owner, he still decided to fix what was necessary to get this engine back together. What choice do we have but to do what the owner wants? Refusing to do the work for the owner causes us to have a car half apart at the shop, and an issue with the owner.
When this owner gets his car back, do you think he'll tell everyone Francois Sicard did the engine rebuild? When the next guy, who buys the car based on the knowledge that Francois "did the engine," finds another dropped valve seat, what do you think he'll think of Francois' work? It all gets so complicated when owners don't want to do things right!
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
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airsanford
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:15 pm
I had a shop for many years, and things were simple:
Bring me a deposit check for the work I say it needs, or bring a tow truck. If you ever turn a wrench on anything, all previous work will reflect on you, no matter if you did it or not.
As I tell my current aircraft clients, "if you want to save money, don't own an airplane."
Same is true for old Ferraris. If you can't afford to fix it right, you can't afford it at all.
Lee
GTE 2811
Bring me a deposit check for the work I say it needs, or bring a tow truck. If you ever turn a wrench on anything, all previous work will reflect on you, no matter if you did it or not.
As I tell my current aircraft clients, "if you want to save money, don't own an airplane."
Same is true for old Ferraris. If you can't afford to fix it right, you can't afford it at all.
Lee
GTE 2811
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Rudy van Daalen Wetters
- Posts: 1206
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm
Few years ago in my shop, I had a similar issue, which I solved by offering, with willingness to donate my time and necessary parts to put the engine back together exactly the way it was, still with its problem and without attempting any short-cut repair, after which the owner decided to take the car "as is" and engine still apart to someone else who was willing to take whatever short-cuts owner insisted.What choice do we have but to do what the owner wants? Refusing to do the work for the owner causes us to have a car half apart at the shop, and an issue with the owner.
Unfortunately, not much later of course, engine developed more catastrophic failure, but at least my name was not associated with that.
Since then and based on my other experiences, before I even start diagnosing any problem, I always insist describing "the-worst-case-scenario" (which is more likely, especially when we're dealing with cars that are 30-40-50-or-more years old) and if the owner is not capable to handle that, I suggest he/she try to find a another shop that's better suited to accommodate their "needs", as it's not my job to save their money (for if they want financial advise, I'll suggest they visit their accountant, Charles Schwab & Co. or something like that), but to make their car as good/reliable/enjoyable as it can/need to be for them to be happy with it. As for me, my reputation is worth more than any job in the world.
Timo
All good points gentlemen, and I wonder why Francois still does what he does. Part of me feels he has a soft spot for these cars, and sometimes the owner. My case in point, why would he have spent so much time with me working on my car to save a blown apart 330 America? Often times, his generosity forces him to loose time and money on a project, but he's managed to make a living doing what he loves to do. He's also at a point in his life where his reputation preceeds him, so if someone has a complaint about his work, it's usually untrue or the work was actually done by someone else. He's had a couple cars come into his shop where the new owner thought he had rebuilt his engine. After showing receipts on the contrary, Francois has suggested taking the issue up with the previous owner. Always double check what is being represented by the seller. Trust no one!
Personally, I'm trying to figure it all out for myself and my future. I do not have the reputation of Francois, nor the client list. If I eventually want to make a living on these old cars, I will have to take most of the jobs that come my way. I may not be a liberty to turn away work, or refuse to do as the customer wants. We would all like to eventually have that freedom, but for those of us starting out and creating a reputation, it has its conflicts.
Tom
Personally, I'm trying to figure it all out for myself and my future. I do not have the reputation of Francois, nor the client list. If I eventually want to make a living on these old cars, I will have to take most of the jobs that come my way. I may not be a liberty to turn away work, or refuse to do as the customer wants. We would all like to eventually have that freedom, but for those of us starting out and creating a reputation, it has its conflicts.
Tom
'63 330 America #5053