Is the Customer always right?

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tyang
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Is the Customer always right?

Post by tyang »

Wanting to continue this conversation in a new thread:
Hi Tom,

It really is a difficult decision, I'd love to follow Tom & Timo's advice and just say no, but like yourself I don’t have the client list (or reputation) Mr Shaughnessy does and I still need to eat after all!

My way out of this conundrum was to say no to real hack jobs and ensure that all our shop invoices have a notes section on them, if I'm forced to either take a shortcut or only do a portion of the required repair then it goes in the notes so anybody looking at the receipts can see what we've done and what we thought needed doing

We've currently got a 400i (30897 for those interested) that fell into this quagmire, previous owners half arsed the job at a well known UK specialist 5k miles later lots of smoke and one dead 400i giving the owner the bad news was like telling kids their puppy needs to be put down!!!
Another issue is dealing with 400s and 2+2 cars. They have been the lowest level of the Ferrari market, so there is often a deferred maintenace program instilled on these cars. With 400s languishing in the $25-30K range, it doesn't make much sense to spend $25K for an engine rebuild, but cobbling together a repair to keep it on the road is often the case. The same often goes with the early V-8 cars. Ferraris are not simple cars, and they are maintenance heavy. Stop doing it, and the car is bound to bite you back in a big way!

I agree with Andrew and Rudy, keep accuate notes, especially when asked to do something you don't necessarily agree with!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
AndrewW-G
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Re: Is the Customer always right?

Post by AndrewW-G »

Hi Tom,

20-30k for a 400....try $6k in the UK for one with issues! :shock:

I think the problem isnt doing what the customer wants but more a case of how much we educate the non technicaly minded.

it would be so easy to say yes I can bodge your 400 together for
£xk but far more difficult to say, yes we can fix it but it needs XYZ to be any good

I'll do anything my customers ask.......as long as they sign a work order which outlines my recomendations and their instructions
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Re: Is the Customer always right?

Post by AndrewW-G »

AndrewW-G wrote:I'll do anything my customers ask.......as long as they sign a work order which outlines my recomendations and their instructions
Within Reason Obviously :D
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Yale
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Re: Is the Customer always right?

Post by Yale »

tyang wrote:Wanting to continue this conversation in a new thread:
Hi Tom,

It really is a difficult decision, I'd love to follow Tom & Timo's advice and just say no, but like yourself I don’t have the client list (or reputation) Mr Shaughnessy does and I still need to eat after all!

My way out of this conundrum was to say no to real hack jobs and ensure that all our shop invoices have a notes section on them, if I'm forced to either take a shortcut or only do a portion of the required repair then it goes in the notes so anybody looking at the receipts can see what we've done and what we thought needed doing

We've currently got a 400i (30897 for those interested) that fell into this quagmire, previous owners half arsed the job at a well known UK specialist 5k miles later lots of smoke and one dead 400i giving the owner the bad news was like telling kids their puppy needs to be put down!!!
Another issue is dealing with 400s and 2+2 cars. They have been the lowest level of the Ferrari market, so there is often a deferred maintenace program instilled on these cars. With 400s languishing in the $25-30K range, it doesn't make much sense to spend $25K for an engine rebuild, but cobbling together a repair to keep it on the road is often the case. The same often goes with the early V-8 cars. Ferraris are not simple cars, and they are maintenance heavy. Stop doing it, and the car is bound to bite you back in a big way!

I agree with Andrew and Rudy, keep accuate notes, especially when asked to do something you don't necessarily agree with!

Tom

I am sure Tom is thinking of me when he speaks about rebuilt engines that re used the old valves and didn't align the block when they did the rebuild. As for the p.o.'s notes...somehow though VSOC said they existed all through the pre-sale there weren't any when all was said and done.

Fact of the matter is if someone wants to get out of their car they are going to be sticking it to someone else and could of even inherited the problem from the fellow before them. I think with the four seat cars this is more the norm then the exception. I remember a fellow on both this list and F-chat who waited years for the no stories correct car to come along, did the full ppi and still had the engine blow up on him in the first months of ownership. Often when people sell the car they just don't want to fix it anymore. Yale
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
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tyang
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Post by tyang »

I am sure Tom is thinking of me when he speaks about rebuilt engines that re used the old valves and didn't align the block when they did the rebuild. As for the p.o.'s notes...somehow though VSOC said they existed all through the pre-sale there weren't any when all was said and done.
Hi Yale,

I was actually thinking of my car! When I bought my 330, the owner told me that the engine was rebult by a Jaguar Mechanic. Francois advised me to at least put it on the engine stand and check the valve train. As he turned the engine over, things were too tight. As we delved further, we found oil seals incorrectly installed or missing, and the rings installed with little clearance. So much for a previous rebuild!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
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Art S.
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Post by Art S. »

Yale,

I think you are referring to Wayne, the moderator of the vintage section of Fchat. Although I think the details were somewhat different than you described, the end result was the same.

It was a show winning GTE, by the way.

Regards,

Art S.
1965 330 2+2 series 2 7919
abrent
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Post by abrent »

Yale, I think you are having a moan without any substance. When it's time to sell a car I don't believe the majority of old ferrari owners are out to stick it to the next guy. I too have heard about the "newly rebuilt" engine which drops a valve or boils it's bum out within a year later. Sometimes it's with a new owner, sometimes not. My own car had suspect oil pressure - something that has a whole host of reasons till the motor was apart and it was found that the PO used the wrong hose clamps on the oil pickup tube and it had let go - a little bit.
There are dozens of reasons, and I don't think all of us have the resources to advise the mechanic to "just do it all, bugger the cost" when the car has a problem. But certainly it is rolling the dice and providing the Mechanic has advised about the possible scenarios that the shortcut presents then where is the problem?
I think with any old car you are rolling the dice when you buy it - and if you are one who is convinced that the $$'s spent on buying are the last ones spent on any old car then you are a fool.
Perhaps the best advice is to buy one full of needs - that way there is no surprizes. (that worked for Tom Super Dave and myself...)
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Post by Art S. »

Actually,

Now that I think about it, Yale has rebuilt most of his car's systems at least three times... Yale, how are the brakes doing, quit cutting corners on them :D .

Regards,

Art S.
1965 330 2+2 series 2 7919
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Yale
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Post by Yale »

Art S. wrote:Yale,

I think you are referring to Wayne, the moderator of the vintage section of Fchat. Although I think the details were somewhat different than you described, the end result was the same.

It was a show winning GTE, by the way.

Regards,

Art S.
Yes, I was but as he never seems to talk about his car, (even when you ask him on a public forum ;), I didn't think I should mention him.

As for Jaguar mechanics and Ferrari's, the story Tom tells was the same one I heard about my car, "a Jaguar mechanic rebuilt the engine." No wonder Jaguars are so notoriously problematic, incompetent mechanics!


Yale
Yale
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Koll
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Post by Koll »

I think this "keeping copious notes" thing is a good idea. But, it can lead to the standard disclaimer... "Advise for complete rebuild" on everything.

With this brave new world comes some benefits of the "new age". Photo-documentaton. Sure, it's a PITA to document things with pictures and good notes. But how often do we all type away for hours on essentially nothing. <grin>

Here, robust documentation and images coupled with judicious and quality work would ensure happy customers (ie: customers that can drive their cars) and a justly earned reputation.

It's sad things could come to that, but many don't have decades to build reputations that some of the old timers had.

Someday, these will be the "new Bugattis" - million dollar cars. Well, maybe half million. A reputation will be everything then! As if it isn't already.
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Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters »

I agree, these cars will the next line of Bugattis in the years to come. The more documentation, the better. I know of a mechanic with a shop that specializes in Ferrari, Maserati and Lamborghini and it is his policy to photograph all his work as it is performed. Even oil changes are photographed showing the old oil coming out and the new being poured in. Each photo has a date stamp on it. The photos are then emailed to the customer as part of their own record. I can appreciate that kind of detail.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Timo
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Post by Timo »

OK, I felt I wanted to clarify some of my opinions in this regard and they are only focused on
"classic/antique/hobby(?)" vehicles, which I consider to be luxury-items and their main purpose is to
provide pleasure in our lives. I don't mean to offend anybody with following comments and any references
used are not directed at anyone specific. I also understand that my ideas couldn't necessery be
attached to the services of "everyday" transportation or work vehicles.

As a self-respecting professional restorer with utmost respect and interest in all classic/antique
vehicles my outlook for this issue may differ from many, but I feel that if person, due to their
financial ability, wants me (or someone else) to perform mediocre or questionable service/repair/restoration
for their classic vehicle, they appaerentely posses something they either can't afford to or they're
lacking appropriate respect for said vehicle to maintain its technical/mechanical integrity.

It's like someone having golf as hobby but can only afford one club, or downhill skiing without proper
gear and no money to be allocated for lift tickets, or owning/flying a DC-3 but only affording
service for 1 of its 2 motors (as it can be operated with just one, but why would You want to ?),
or replacing V-12 in a Ferrari (or I-6 in Jaguar? or I-8 in Bugatti? etc...) with small block Chevy merely
because latter is cheaper to maintain, etc..

And what about the professional integrity of the provider of services for these classics? Would Yours be any
more flexible, if sometime ago You'd, perhaps grudginly, provided questionable service for the
"most frugal of Ferraristis"(LOL) by installing, let's say, some used chevy brakes he found at the junkyard
(and Yes, I've been asked, although not for Ferrari), and now later, using that as pretext he/she insist You to
install that small block mentioned earlier?

As for the maintainence or restoration of easthetics, maybe little more liberties could be afforded,
although I'd still refuse to strip and re-paint a car for $1000.- even if it's all the owner can afford
and/or has been quoted by Maaco, E. Sheib or someone else for that or less.

Other alternative, of course is for the owner to become self-reliant in all aspects of service/restoration,
though that can also lead to other questionable issues, especially later if/when selling the car, as the
owner/hobbyists usually don't value and/or document their own time and efforts properly during the process,
but often claims "professional quality".

So, in sense the "customer is always right", as he/she always has the final say in by whom they allow
to perform the required service/restoration of their vehicle.

I look forward to any comments. Thanks.
Timo
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Art S.
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Post by Art S. »

Interesting call.

Based on the description, I suspect this is a long time owner that drives his car regularly. But I suspect the 330 in question would probobly have been sold to Tom S. or equivilent and have been broken up for parts or left in a garage/barn for years if not for the, knowledge, willingness and efforts of Francois. Thus I whole hearedly support his call.

If the car was owned by a dealer or someone who recently purchased it, I suspect the call would have been different.

Regards,

Art S.
1965 330 2+2 series 2 7919
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