Is it time to Sell?

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rpalmer
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Post by rpalmer » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:31 pm

Tom-

I sold my 330 GT in the late 80's at the peak.

The odds of me getting into another Ferrari are not good. With a daughter in high school, and the current projections for college costs, the odds are not good at all.

So I just have some memories.

But on the other hand, we bought a bigger, nicer house. I no longer had to go to my agent and up the insurance every other month when the Ferrari Market Letter came out. I no longer had to worry about something made of unobtanium breaking. I no longer had to worry about some idiot hitting me.

Now I drive a fun car that has anti-lock brakes, airbags, and air-conditioning. It offers a higher level of performance and I can get parts for it at AutoZone. I recently prematurely changed the platinum plugs at 70,000 miles only because I was about to complicate plug access with a strut tower brace. I don't ever have to worry about fussing with 4 sets of points or hydro-locking the engine with a hung float.

I get to drive it and enjoy it every day (except I put it up for the winter) and it sounds pretty good when you punch it.

I don't define myself by what I drive so I'm still the same person driving something else, and I suspect most of the folks in here are the same way -- they just enjoy machinery, design, driving and having fun.

The Ferrari chapter of my life closed and another chapter began.

I do regret selling it to some degree and I certainly wish I could have another. But it was the right decision at the time and I suspect I'd do it all over again the same way.

Of course, around the same time another buddy of mine was offered an astronomical sum for his tatty 275 GTS and told the caller it wasn't for sale. He liked the car, was comfortable enough to not really need the extra money, and figured he'd never be able to afford another the way things were appreciating.

FWIW. YMMV.

-RP

abrent
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Post by abrent » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:45 am

I cannot believe that such a simple topic has brought out all the sappy, teary-eyed old men. Super Dave, really...Tom, take the money and run dude. Buy back another one during the next real-estate boom when everyone is pulling out of cars. For now get a GTC, or if you keep the America, get something from the 70's. Hey - the V6 dino would be a good choice, and also the V8 dino needs a kick in the arse value wise - what better way to punch them up a bit by making another much un-loved farrari famous like you did with the GTE. I bet you could do the bodywork and paint on one of those without too much drama. You could make a whole new thread with the finding as well as evaluation as well as the restoration itself. waddaya think?

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Dr. Ian Levy
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Is it time to Sell?

Post by Dr. Ian Levy » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:50 am

Hello Tom.
May I offer you one more opinion in your dilemma. I have spent a similar amount of time on my restoration but not under so much scrutiny & FWIW these are my views. For me & my GTC4 the capital value is nowhere near your 330 so I do not have the same issues to consider .
I also love the Lusso but like you find it beyond well my budget,
David says if you can divorce yourself from the blood,sweat & tears you should sell but that is so much easier said than done.. Simply knowing that my GTC4 is in the Carcoon in my garage is enough for me.
Over many years I have bought & sold many interesting cars including several Ferrari & what seemed a good idea & good price at the time has always turned out to be a serious error of judgement.
Ain't hindsight a wonderful thing ?
My view is that unless you have a specific car or other project in mind you should keep the America & enjoy the well deserved fruits of your labour & fame.
The inevitable trend in collectable Ferrari prices is upwards so I think you will always be able to realise the investment potential in your car & whatever you decide your many friends,followers & admirers will understand your decision
Regards
Ian L
1972 365 GTC4 s/n 15989
http://www.ferrari365gtc4.co.uk/

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tyang
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Post by tyang » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:02 am

I cannot believe that such a simple topic has brought out all the sappy, teary-eyed old men. Super Dave, really...Tom, take the money and run dude. Buy back another one during the next real-estate boom when everyone is pulling out of cars. For now get a GTC, or if you keep the America, get something from the 70's. Hey - the V6 dino would be a good choice, and also the V8 dino needs a kick in the arse value wise - what better way to punch them up a bit by making another much un-loved farrari famous like you did with the GTE. I bet you could do the bodywork and paint on one of those without too much drama. You could make a whole new thread with the finding as well as evaluation as well as the restoration itself. waddaya think?
Hi Andrew,

I think you feel the same way, but hide behind your carefree Australian attitude! ;-)

I know of a low mileage Glass 308 that needs a major service, and some sorting to get back on the road, but I don't know if I have the same passion for these cars as I do for the V-12s. I personally feel the early carbed 308s are poised for a jump in value. The only pesky problem that can not be solved on these cars is the all too frequent belt service.

I'm with Ian, I'm keeping my car unless an offer I can't refuse comes along that will get me a dream project going again!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

jsa330
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Post by jsa330 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:01 am

David Booth wrote: I would only venture the obvious: while there are peaks and valleys in vintage Ferrari pricing over the years, the unmistakable trend is upward. There are plenty of people who have bought rough cars well, restored them, and used the resulting equity to move up-market. But obviously, you need two things to be successful at that game: near-perfect timing, and the ability to divorce yourself from the blood, toil, tears and sweat that the finished car represents to you and you alone. And as I think we all know, we’re now in the narrow end of the funnel with these cars and the days of that happening, because of the buy-in price and the decreasing number of available suitable cars, are numbered.
Agree with all points.

Over a 3-yr period I personally brought my 330 2+2 from badly neglected yet solid to very nice all-round, then it was removed involuntarily (total loss accident), fair equity was handed to me by the insurance co., and I'm working on getting back in.

You can't time this market if you're a non-speculator enthusiast with a limit to your spending ability...get in and hold long term. It's not about making money.

In Tom's case, he has two good choices in front of him. He didn't intend to time the market but it worked out in his favor anyway.
David Booth wrote: Tom, if you find the right candidate (and a GTC would be a really good choice) and can part with the America, then go right ahead. We, your faithful flock, will be only too happy to spectate on your next project.
Absolutely!!

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David Booth
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Post by David Booth » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:32 pm

Guess I used too many words and confused my good friend from The Antipodes into thinking I was tearing up. I just should have said, "..thanks for handing me the microphone, but what the hell do I know?".
1960 SII PF cabriolet #2105GT
1963 250GTE #4799GT with 330 America engine #5033GT

"...Luigi follow only the Ferraris.."

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
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Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:51 pm

Throw another Lusso part on the barbe, mate.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

jcwconsult
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Post by jcwconsult » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:55 pm

Hi Tom,

If I had unlimited funds (which I don't), I would have two classic V-12 Ferrari 2+2's. One would be a 95+ point car for shows and the other would be my daily driver in all but the worst winter weather.

Our two daily drivers are both as fast or faster to 60 mph than my 365, but there is NO comparison in character. Our Mazda 3 and BMW 325i are both modern cars and very competent in every arena of driving -- but by comparison, they have no soul.

My compromise that gives me pleasure, and I suspect yours, is to drive my V-12 quite a lot when the weather is likely to be decent, and to not panic if I get caught in the rain once in awhile. And, I prefer the 2+2's over the sometimes more beautiful 2 seaters because they lend quite a bit of practicality for trips and family use. For some people, including me, I needed a late 330 or the 365 to get the air conditioning. My wife is very heat sensitive and the A/C was a requirement for her to ride.

I have also been to a couple of local Ferrari events where my car was the only classic V-12. Guess which car they all want to see and learn about.

Keep yours and love it - at least for a time.
Jim Walker
365 GT 2+2 #12451

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Yale
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Post by Yale » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:53 pm

Sell the America and get a Daytona. The ones I have seen people buy need an amazing amount of body work and you could then open a whole new chapter in the Tom Yang saga, experience, thrill ride. Plus, I bet they will be worth more then the Americas in the long run and you have always been a muscle car sort of guy what with the Shelby-ized Mustang.

Best,

Yale
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo

Keith Milne
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Post by Keith Milne » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:25 pm

I agree with most everything said here, but will add my two cents anyway. Someone mentioned in an earlier post the tax consequences on the gain (if any, after restoration cost). There was a good article written in SCM very recently regarding this and it is somewhat sobering. In my case, I'm not at break even yet, so its irrelevant. However, I could not afford to just "buy" my 330 at today's prices and, if I could, I would not choose that car. In fact, with the recent escalation in values, I can't afford many of the cars I have owned in the past (Porsche 356s, early 911s, etc.). Effectively, I am priced out of the current market. 25 years ago, I was offered a nice Lusso for $25K and a near concours Boano for $20K - neither of which I could afford then either. So, for some of us, the market is always just a few steps ahead of our finances. I am helping a friend of mine sell a Porsche 356 now for ridiculous money and another friend of mine has sold a couple 356 Speedsters recently for obscene (slightly more than ridiculous) money. For me, none of this really matters. I've always been a gearhead and restoring/refurbishing a car is my misguided therapy. The price "appreciation" is my misguided justification to my wife for more cars. Fortunately, she is smarter than that, but lets me have them anyway.

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peterp
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Post by peterp » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:03 pm

Tom,

You've been through so much with that car and it has really changed your life, the only question you have to answer for yourself is whether down the line you would regret it. I had a Datsun 510 in high school/college that I did everything you could possibly do to it -- very heavily but sensibly modified. What I did was 1/10th of what you have done, and I have cars now that are far more interesting than the 510, and it's just a Datsun -- but I still wish I had that car because it was a personal project.

Your car is beautiful and I'd hate to see you part with it, but if it isn't something you'll regret down then line and you want another project, then go for it. If you do choose to go this route, I think Yale is onto something with the Daytona idea -- it would be a lot of fun to restore and own (and drive!) and it's likely to appreciate.

Peter
Peter P
1966 330 2+2 series 2 #8169

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tyang
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Post by tyang » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:24 pm

Tom,

You've been through so much with that car and it has really changed your life, the only question you have to answer for yourself is whether down the line you would regret it. I had a Datsun 510 in high school/college that I did everything you could possibly do to it -- very heavily but sensibly modified. What I did was 1/10th of what you have done, and I have cars now that are far more interesting than the 510, and it's just a Datsun -- but I still wish I had that car because it was a personal project.

Your car is beautiful and I'd hate to see you part with it, but if it isn't something you'll regret down then line and you want another project, then go for it. If you do choose to go this route, I think Yale is onto something with the Daytona idea -- it would be a lot of fun to restore and own (and drive!) and it's likely to appreciate.

Peter
Hi Peter,

I've done a lot of thinking in the past couple of days, and thanks to everyone here, I've decided to keep my car. It's not about the money for me, but the enjoyment of the restoration and enjoyment of ownership. I will figure out a way to perhaps do another one, and you all all benefit from watching how I do it!

I need to spend some more time behind the wheel of a Daytona, but I was not overly impressed with what I remember in driving one. I seem to remember it had a real "Hairy Chested Italian" feel to it. It's lines also move away from the the organic forms I love about earlier Ferraris to the sharper creases of the modern Ferraris.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

whturner
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Decisions - decisions

Post by whturner » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:35 am

Hi Tom:

To be - (a Ferrari owner) or not to be - that is the question. You have choices.
(1) Trade the Ferrari for a pile of money. What are you going to do with the money? If you are just going to bank it: then---
(2) Keep the Ferrari, it is also money in the bank, and you can have fun with it. And depending how much tax you have to pay on the sale, maybe the pile of money is not as high as one first thought. And if the price of Ferraris plunges, so what. you still have the Ferrari, and it will go back up.
(3) Trade up to another Ferrari. If you like it well enough.

I had my Ferrari all through the bubble - am not sorry.

Cheers
Warren
330 GT Series II sn 10069

afwrench
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Post by afwrench » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:38 pm

abrent wrote:I cannot believe that such a simple topic has brought out all the sappy, teary-eyed old men. Super Dave, really...Tom, take the money and run dude. Buy back another one during the next real-estate boom when everyone is pulling out of cars. For now get a GTC, or if you keep the America, get something from the 70's. Hey - the V6 dino would be a good choice, and also the V8 dino needs a kick in the arse value wise - what better way to punch them up a bit by making another much un-loved farrari famous like you did with the GTE. I bet you could do the bodywork and paint on one of those without too much drama. You could make a whole new thread with the finding as well as evaluation as well as the restoration itself. waddaya think?
Hey! Who are you calling old and teary eyed.I was at the recent party and there were plenty of tough guys there who are not that old .Im glad that Tom is going to keep his car. I say dont sell your toys. Is there anyone out there who would not like to have most of his old stuff back? Unless things go bat s--t crazy Im keeping my stuff . Let the kids sell and deal with the regrets. Now I have to find my box of tissues. Mike
72,365gtc4,14681,2007 599 GTB

abrent
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Post by abrent » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:27 pm

Hi, Tom's a little younger than I, David is a little older. I have teenage children, and I am the same age as my GTE. - that makes me old dude.

Tom is right when he said I was hiding out in Australian macho land. I feel the same way about selling, just wanted to get the party started. Besides, teasing David from accross the world means I can avoid the slap upside the head I would get if I was accross the car.
However, I do think that this is the middle or perhaps the beginning of the end of a bubble in prices. I just wish that I could get a idea from anyone else that this is the case. If I am right then logically we should all be getting out, only to jump back in again when things settle. However, I won't be and I can't seriously suggest that anyone else does either.
I really like Yale's idea on the Daytona, although don't take that to mean that I agree with anything Yale say's. The 70's were an interesting period for Ferrari due to the infusion of cash from Fiat and stabilisation of the idea that they had to make production cars that people wanted to buy in any country. What about an early Boxer - again, really interesting car that looks great, goes like shit off a shovel and will present challenges with regard to restoration that not alot of us old dudes with V12's have any idea about.
Think about something else with this next car as well. If you get something that your are not as attached to, when it comes time to send it on down the road the decsion will not be as difficult.

LAter.

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