Rebuild Starter or Fit Modern One?

[Bryan P]

I forgot one thing re: the sound of the modern starter. Kizer is right, when the motor is warm, you will never hear the starter. Before I got the starter for the MGA, Dempsey was trying to let me hear the starter awhile back and was frustrated that his Ferrari was starting too quickly!

[xs10shl]

removing a stock starter from some 250 series engines is a royal pain in the a**! The header heat shield has to come off along with the rear header and started heat shield. This can easily become a 2-3 hour job provided there are no problems!

Tom

I can imagine that's true. So for someone with my limited talent, that would be an 8 hour job, if I use my "3x conversion rate".

I looked today to see if I could shoehorn the starter out from under the 330, and there does not appear to be enough clearance without first unscrewing some stuff. I can remember owning some older cars where it was just hanging off of the flywheel in plain sight, which I must have been thinking of when I posted.

[tyang]

I can imagine that's true. So for someone with my limited talent, that would be an 8 hour job, if I use my "3x conversion rate".

I looked today to see if I could shoehorn the starter out from under the 330, and there does not appear to be enough clearance without first unscrewing some stuff. I can remember owning some older cars where it was just hanging off of the flywheel in plain sight, which I must have been thinking of when I posted.

The Ferrari oil pan is "T' shaped, so there's no chance of it coming out the bottom of the engine.

Notice I said "provided there are no problems!" When is working on a Ferrari without problems. Let's name some of the issues:
1. snapped exhaust shield bolts, so you'll have to decide if you're going to drill and tap a new hole.
2. stripped bronze exhuast nut, will have to figure out how to get them off, or have to modify your wrenches so they will get past the tight clearances of the header tubes.
3. seized exhuast clamp at the bottom of the header where it connects to the muffler pipes. have to break out the torch for some prodigious amount of heat.
4. With everything back on, you'll have to contend with prying the header flange back onto the exhaust studs. A big pry bar helps. Also remember to make all you make all your starter electrical connections before you bolt anything back in place because you're not getting to them again!

Do you see how hard it is to explain to owners of Ferraris why it costs so much?

I've been working on my '65 Mustang over the winter, and just pulled the transmission. The starter practically falls out of the car with two bolts and one wire. I've changed many in my lifetime, often in less than 20 minutes which included jacking up the car!

I keep saying to myself, "if working on Ferraris was so easy, everyone would be doing it!"

Tom

[Dr. Ian Levy]

Hello all
I had the starter motor on my GTC4 fully rebuilt by a local specialist. It is a pain to get in & out but then I have only done it once. It works fine & spins the engine fast enough to start it easily. If it did not do the job I might have gone for the modern equivalent but it is not necessary for me. We all know there are modern replacements to the working parts of 40 year old cars but I agree with John V & I have kept the original
Regards
Ian L

[tyang]

I'm still undecided on whether I'd go with a modern starter. My stock one works pretty well, so I'm going to leave well enough alone. The same goes for my ignition system. When I start having problems, I'll decide which way I'll go.

Since I'll be riding in Mark Dempsey's 365 with the new starter installed down to Cavallino, I'll try to make a recording to post on this site.

I made this recording of what a stock Ferrari V-12 sounds like at startup:
http://www.tomyang.net/cars/startup.mp3

Maybe you could play this recording for the judges when they ask you to start your car at the concours!

Tom

[Dr. Ian Levy]

Tom
Interesting that you say "when I start having problems "
I think that you are correct to leave alone if it ain't broken
Regards
Ian

[tyang]

Tom
Interesting that you say "when I start having problems "
I think that you are correct to leave alone if it ain't broken
Regards
Ian

Interesting pun, or pessimism?

With a Marelli Starter, it's only a matter of time!

Tom

[enio45]

Id say lets get a site discount and each to their own. I can use one for a 330 . The ones ive seen in italy at the swap meets are 250 - 300 euro used with no guarentee on working. I alway wonder when i hit the key - is the battery going low or the starter burning out??

[Dr. Ian Levy]

Hello Tom
With Marelli & Lucas powering essential electrics it is amazing that these beautiful cars are still fit for the road!!!
Ian

[xs10shl]

Another less often discussed solution is to park facing downwards on an incline at all times. It's a trick I used with great success when I was in college.

[hangten]

I spoke to Martin, and my starter is on its way to him to have a modern replacement made. I will post a follow up in a couple of weeks once I get a chance to install it and test drive it.
Thanks for all the help.
Aloha,
Mark

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

Tom,

I listened to the recording of the start up about ten times (very cool) and was drawn specifically to the carbs and fuel pump. My fuel pump is about half as fast as yours but seems to fill the bowls up faster. Once the bowls are filled I shut the electric pump off before starting. I also never use the choke as you didn't. I noticed a lot of spitting back from one or two of the carbs in your recording. I had the same issue on my car after the engine was rebuilt. First thing I did was to re synchronize the carbs at 2500 RPM. Then I went back and re syncronized them at idle speed. It is amazing how even they were at the higher speed yet how far off they were at idle!! Taught me to never to assume anything when it comes to these Webers. This syncronizing process took the better part of a day by the way. Finally, I isolated exactly which carbs were spitting back when cold and enrichened those carbs by turning out the mixture screw one quarter turn. If it still happened, I went another eigth of a turn.
Now, if the car is dead cold, it idles very slowly yet very evenly with no spitting back when prodding the throttle. The final exam was to pull all the plugs and make sure they all are consistent in color after a good run (thrashing).

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[Jimmyr]

Rudy, your carb sync process is right on, but I would like to add on comment.
Check the ignition timing prior to doing any carb work as one may mask the other. Also, any exhaust leaks may also cause some mixture problems that are hard to account for. Jim

[tyang]

Hi Rudy,

Thanks for the tips! My car runs a lot better than when I made that recording, but I found some of the throttle shafts to be worn, so there is some air leaking past the throttle plates at idle. Francois and I got them tuned as best as we could considering the circumstances.

I think I remember the day I recorded that clip, it was cold (about 45-50 degrees), and the car had sat for a couple of weeks. The fuel tends to drain back to the tank more the longer she sits taking longer to pump up to the carbs. I recently started my car up in the garage just to keep things moving the other day (lots of snow outside), and things seemed to be working smoothly!

Tom

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

Jim,

Good point. The carbs get blamed for everything. A decent ignition, set correctly, is the basis of all tuning.


Tom,

I have yet to see a Weber with no throttle shaft play! Seems like they are made of cheese. On an Appia that I had, I managed to turn the shaft 180 degrees and reinsert the throttle plate. Having the unworn part of the shaft topside, the play was reduced dramatically.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705