Old verses New

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365gtc/4
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Old verses New

Post by 365gtc/4 » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:42 am

To quote Tom from his Jet Cavallino story "The crowd at the Jet party was definitely split between those that admired the older cars (pre-72), and those that loved the newer cars. It seemed very rare to find these two groups swapping stories or having drinks together at the airport. "

We have the same experience here in Australia. The new car owners and the old car owners just do not seem to have much in common. Now there are a few guys that own both, but they still tend to hang out with the "old banger" brigade. It is an interesting social phenomenon. Anyway thank you Tom for sharing your experience at the Cavellino. I will come over for next year as it looks great.

Thanks
John
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tyang
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Post by tyang » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:27 am

South Florida has a large concentration of the "New Ferrari Owner," and I met a some of them through BT during my stay. BT wouldn't have hosted me and Mark had it not been for his enthusiasm for this site and the Vintage Ferraris, but I can tell you, the rest of them had very little interest our scene. The biggest difference I saw, and it might have been due to the So FLA Scene, was the "young bucks on patrol" additude of many of the owners. I certainly don't mean any offence in this observation, but the conversations I had with all the Vintage guys was almost always about the preservation and restoration of the cars.

BT summed it up the best when describing the difference between my Forum and F-Chat where many of the "NFOs" (new achronym?) hang. "If the Ferrari world is a College campus, then F-chat would be the Student Lounge, and Tomyang.net would be the Library!" Initially, I wasn't sure how to take that statement, but I now see that as a compliment!

Tom

P.S. If you plan on coming to Cavallino next year John, I look forward to meeting you!
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Bryan P
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Post by Bryan P » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:15 pm

Michael B and I have discussed this many times - not only do the NFOs (speaking in generalities here, so there are exceptions) not admire/appreciate the older cars, the tendency I have observed lately is that they completley ignore the older cars. I don't know if it because an old 2+2 doesn't have cool wheels, stereo, etc. Or perhaps appreciation of an old mechanical object requires a knowledge base for things mechanical.

My experience w/ most of the new guys is that there is zero mechanical aptitude. I guess I can't fault the younger NFOs for not knowing what they don't know and therefore can't appreciate. I have much, much more of a kinship w/ the guys in the MG club (I also have an MGA) than I do w/ the local FCA guys. I have pretty much stopped going to FCA events except for the occassional show. The local Ferrari outings either involve (1) standing around talking about wine/cigars/exotic vacations/tubi exhausts or (2) going on blindingly fast runs that my old car is not up to - I can't brake or accelerate like a 360 . . . I basically either do early morning runs by myself or w/ Michael in his 330 or C/4.

I am 45 years old and grew up w/ a dad who raced SCCA since before I was born - there was always at least one sports car in pieces. My earliest childhood memories include sitting in the drive way w/ a bucket of nasty parts and another bucket w/ Gunk and a stiff brush. Amateur (i.e., non-professional) auto mechanics appears to be a lost art (unless you're talking about the new generation of laptop tuners - that is another whole paradigm to me). I try to involve my 6 year-old son with the Ferrari and MGA repairs - he helped me redo the MGA's rear brakes last fall (he hasn't learned not to touch his face once he has gotten greasy, but it helps complete his road warrior look when he goes back into the house to show his mom).

Finally, a couple of younger NFO guys have actually seen my dad's garage and don't seem to know what to make of it. It is not the pristine, race-deck floored, artwork-laden garage I see on a lot of garage pic thread on f-chat. It is grubby and broken into a dirty-side and clean-side w/ a big air compressor, blasting cabinet, mig welder, built-in engine hoist beam and about every tool you could imagine, i.e. a working garage.
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Rudy van Daalen Wetters
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Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:13 pm

Getting aquainted with this college....just point me to the girls dorm and I'll take it from there.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
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Rudy van Daalen Wetters
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Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:41 pm

My thinking is that the newer generation can not really appreciate what it doesn't know. As youngsters many of us were exposed to this on a mechanical level, many through our own families. If it weren't for my own father's appreciation and tinkering with cars, I can't really say that I'd still have the same level of enthusiasm that I do now. Also, I had to learn to work on cars since ours were constantly breaking down. Duct tape and bailing wire were essential in trying to make it home. In looking back, I wouldn't have changed a thing.

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1963 GTE s/n 4001
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airsanford
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Post by airsanford » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:56 pm

in this corner, REAL.

in the other corner, FAKE.

and in one small vignette, all that's wrong as the Empire unwinds.

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Bryan P
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Post by Bryan P » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:28 pm

Rudy - this is off-topic, but I was just looing at the 500TR (0650MDTR) currently on ebay for $5M (or is that 5 GAZILLION?) - Barchetta records say that your father owned it back in the 60s?
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Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:39 pm

Bryan,

Yes, 0650 MDTR was in fact owned by my father from 1968 to 1997. It was quite the car to have in the family while my brother and I were growing up. My father was quite proud and protective of the car but still let my brother and I drive it many times. The car was always with us in our home garage in Burbank. When my father was on a business trip, my brother and I would take the opportunity to uncover the car and start it up! It was very loud but had a spine tingling ripping sound when revved up. My sister once was pulled over when she drove it since it was not street legal. The officer gave up looking for a VIN number and let her go. All of us would work on the car and it made for a great family bonding experience. Even the house cat would jump in and fall asleep in the passenger seat under the tonneau. We would joke that the cat had an exquisite taste in cars. In summary, we all have some great memories of that Ferrari and the many years of pleasure it brought us. When my father fell ill, he realized that the the easiest way to provide some security for my mother and avoid family controversy was to let the car go.

The car was sold to Roger Willbanks in 1997 at the RM auction in Monterey. Roger did a sympathetic restoration on the car after he aquired it trying to maintain its originality as much as possible.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

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tyang
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Post by tyang » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:38 pm

Good points everyone. I especially find the idea that NFOs having very little mechanical aptitude intriging. It's really not their fault... Well not all their fault. Who was going to teach them? Most of you guys had fathers that taught you how to fix the lawn mower, or how to tune the family car, but as the family car became a hemetically sealed, fuel injected, 100,000 tune up machine, tinkering has become a thing of the past. If a young guy wanted to learn how to rebuild an engine in his garage, who would he even be able to show him?

I certainly don't plan to change the world, but if we can convert one or two of the NFOs over to our crowd by offering a ride, starting a conversation, or teaching them a thing or two, they may see the light!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

Keith Milne
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Post by Keith Milne » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:33 pm

This is typical in other marques as well. Back in the mid-70's the 356 Registry (of which I was an original member) was created to combat the NFOs in the Porsche Club of America. At that time and well through the 80s the Registry was a fun crowd of mostly gear-head, old car appreciating nut jobs. Somewhere along the line I began to notice a lot more gold chains at the events and EVERYONE was an expert.

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Post by Vince » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:49 pm

Back in the days when the vintage Ferraris were brand new..., South Florida had a large concentration of the "New Ferrari Owner," - not young (life began at 50 in those days), but aware of the complex maintenance requirements. Like the "young bucks on patrol", they would have the dealer do all the work .

The concept that you could actually wrench on your own Ferrari was unthinkable - maybe a (generally younger) enthusiast would tune the SUs in an MG, but for an amateur mechanic to start taking apart his brand new Ferrari...

Some time (and price drop) had to pass before the "Vintage Guys" appeared who not only maintain, but preserve and restore their Ferraris...

365gtc/4
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Post by 365gtc/4 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:50 am

I must stress that these opinions are real genaralities with lots of exceptions.

Bryan P wrote "I have much, much more of a kinship w/ the guys in the MG club (I also have an MGA) than I do w/ the local FCA guys. I have pretty much stopped going to FCA events except for the occassional show. The local Ferrari outings either involve (1) standing around talking about wine/cigars/exotic vacations/tubi exhausts or (2) going on blindingly fast runs that my old car is not up to"

Well that about sums up things here as well except the last bit ie (2). The new guys tend to cruise the esplanards, boulevards etc at 20mph and have lunch/coffee in a side-walk cafe in a busy expensive area of town. The old guys tend to drive out in the country away from crowds and authority. A few times some NFO have come along and are astounded at the speed, and in fact in many cases will not keep up. When they do arrive at the luch destination out in a remote country area they say that they were impressed with the speed and handling, but especially the noise. I have passed guys in 3rd and 4th near red line and they have told me the noise was awesome. So some do appreciate the old cars but have never had the opportunity to experience what they have to offer and think they are just old cars. (Which they are but bloody great old cars.)
Here there is a big cross over with both the Austin Healy guys who drive hard and party even harder, and the old Aston Martin crowd, some with beautiful DB4GTs.
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John
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Post by Michael Bayer » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:11 pm

I have recently taken turns with BrianP hand seating the valves in his Family's Mondial. Our wrists are good for about 6 minutes in that headed cylinders and they are toast. All there is to do is talk and twist. I think we have another conclusion while the OFGs hold the old Ferraris most dear they are drawn to any cool machine, Italian, English whatever. I see this in multi make shows most (not all) of the NFGs seem to stand around their ond cars (usually with the motor compartment closed, the OFgs have their hoods up and are immediatelly checking out evverything. think the gathering we had the entire crowd was out in the rain to see tht Abarth pocket rocket sdtart upo and run. I can't make this line up but you get the point

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TOMKIZER
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Post by TOMKIZER » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:39 pm

tyang wrote:Good points everyone. I especially find the idea that NFOs having very little mechanical aptitude intriging. It's really not their fault... Well not all their fault. Who was going to teach them? Most of you guys had fathers that taught you how to fix the lawn mower, or how to tune the family car, but as the family car became a hemetically sealed, fuel injected, 100,000 tune up machine, tinkering has become a thing of the past. If a young guy wanted to learn how to rebuild an engine in his garage, who would he even be able to show him?

I certainly don't plan to change the world, but if we can convert one or two of the NFOs over to our crowd by offering a ride, starting a conversation, or teaching them a thing or two, they may see the light!

Tom
Tom, I think you are probably right. My father taught me engine teardown and rebuild in my early teens on the farm. When I "grew up", I was one of those in the auto industry who contributed to creating the "hermetically sealed, fuel injected, 100,000 mile tune-up machines". Our first "ECU's", or engine control units, and fuel injection systems, were nothing more than mathmatically modelled carburetors. Because of emission control laws and feedback carburetor cost and complexity, we really had no choice, but I realize that it contributed to the destruction of the "learning ground" for young "gear heads". What's left is, in my opinion, an era in which most new automobiles have become transportation "appliances". Most people are no more capable today of repairing their new car than they are of repairing their television, so they've lost interest in the "greasy side". I've got mixed feelings about having contributed to that evolution. I think I'll go synchronize my carburetors now so I'll feel better.
Tom Kizer
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tyang
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Post by tyang » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:17 pm

Tom, I think you are probably right. My father taught me engine teardown and rebuild in my early teens on the farm. When I "grew up", I was one of those in the auto industry who contributed to creating the "hermetically sealed, fuel injected, 100,000 mile tune-up machines". Our first "ECU's", or engine control units, and fuel injection systems, were nothing more than mathmatically modelled carburetors. Because of emission control laws and feedback carburetor cost and complexity, we really had no choice, but I realize that it contributed to the destruction of the "learning ground" for young "gear heads". What's left is, in my opinion, an era in which most new automobiles have become transportation "appliances". Most people are no more capable today of repairing their new car than they are of repairing their television, so they've lost interest in the "greasy side". I've got mixed feelings about having contributed to that evolution. I think I'll go synchronize my carburetors now so I'll feel better.
Tom Kizer
Hi Tom,

That being said, my dad had a PhD in Chemistry, so turning wrenches on a greasy old car was the farthest thing from his interests. In fact, if he were alive today, he'd probably be disappointed that I didn't choose a "white collar" profession, but you can't please everyone! I often joke that of a large family, I'm the only one to have achieved only an Undergratuate's degree...and that was an Art Degree! What Shame!

I was "queer for the gear" since I was very young. I remember taking an electric drill apart when I was about 12 just to see how it worked. Needless to say, Dad was pretty pissed off when I couldn't put it back together!

My curiosity drove me to learn more, and if my Dad wasn't going to show me, then I sought out those that could. Most people today don't seem to care one bit about things mechanical. Especially when it comes to cars. I agree with you Tom that the Modern Automobile does not lend it'self to tinkering, but I still change my oil in my 97 Accord, and will do brakes if I don't have to press bearings out.

Depression era parents along with survivors of WWII (my parents fled Communist China) taught their children to go to college, and get white collar jobs. I think sub conscoiusly, we were also taught not to get our hands dirty for our hobbies as well! It's a shame because the rewards of being able to do some of the work yourself is priceless.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

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