'61 250 GTE Restoration Project $95k in Las Vegas s/n 2947

[PSk]

I have to agree with Kare, and this is the problem with these cars.

Everybody is so busy trying to get the ultimate barn find that Tom S (or the replica) crowd come in and grab the car for a more reasonable price ... thus another GTE (and in this case an interesting one due to longer wheel base; yes some don't think it is interesting but ofcourse it is. It means this GTE is a little bit different and thus unique) ends up being cut up.

The other side is this owner probably wants too much, but instead of slagging him off (which is really what the email reply to him on his site was doing) to get the cheapest price possible we should be more compassionate, and atleast let him believe it is a little interesting because it is a Ferrari.

Personally looks like a great restorable car, and as long as it is all there what do you expect from a barn find? ... just to apply polish and drive away :D

Best of luck to the car :)
Pete

[tyang]

I came into the Vintage Ferrari world looking for a project, not for profit, and found a car for a reasonable price for me to do a restoration. Through the years I've met several regretful owners who sold their cars to people who parted them out. I was appalled by the low prices they were paid and felt if they spoke to me a little earlier, I could have found them a buyer that would have paid them the same money, but would have restored them with loving care. Restoring a car, however, takes a lot more commitment than parting a car out. It takes a lot more money, a lot more persistence, and a lot of time, and very few people have that kind of dedication.

An opportunity arose several years ago to perhaps save a car.

http://www.tomyang.net/cars/ferrari364.htm

The owner had the same issue with pricing this car for sale, but eventually, someone came up with $35K to buy it and promised to restore this car. The car was hauled out of the chicken shed, and sent to Southern California where it sat for another year. I was soon contacted by the new owner informing me that he needed the money and was selling the car to Tom S.! Even with all my efforts, another car was parted out: A 330 America!!

I've spent many conversations with Tom S. trying to understand the business that he is in. There is no regret in what he does because of the economics. He feels that people don't buy these cars because they never want to spend the money he pays to part them out. I tried to prove his theory wrong, but time and time again I've been proven that it's a lot harder to save these cars! I have foolishly offered cars without any monetary gain to people who have written me with requests for projects only to have them turn cars down because "it's more than I want to spend on a project."

The rise of the market also brings owners of derelict cars out of the woodwork. They have not loved these cars, but rather let these cars fall into disrepair, and yet want to profit from their efforts? I cringe at the thought of people parking their cars in fields, or barns with no regard to what they own. Undoing the damage takes far more commitment than parking a car.

Have I given up on my quest to save cars? No. Has Tom S. proven his point? Maybe, but that doesn't stop me from trying. I'm actually trying to do something about it, and yet I rarely get any help!

Tom

[Art S.]

Tom also often offers intact projects. He dids this for me recently with 10029. I, unfortunately, had to pass.

Regards,

Art S.

[Art S.]

Tom Shaughnessy that is.

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

Tom,

I hear you cringing out loud. Growing up, my Dad would drag me along to look at many a parked Bugatti just rotting in a field or under a tree. Some of these Bugs could have been saved, some beyond hope. Several of these cars had been vandalized, beaten and torched in flames if you can believe that. As a child I'd always try to understand how someone could let this sort of thing happen to a car. I am still trying to comprehend this to this day.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[PSk]

He feels that people don't buy these cars because they never want to spend the money he pays to part them out.

This is the quote of Tom S's, and I have to agree with Tom S.

Take this car, everybody on this site is constantly telling the owner that it just an old Ferrari and not special, etc. and in really bad condition (even though it is not that bad for a restoration). Thus nobody is prepared to cough up with the cash.

Tom S. IS because the parts used to create a car is always worth more than the car as a whole, thus he pays. Ex-owner is happy and another car is cut up.

If we want to save these cars we need to start spending the money ... as Tom S. says.

This is why I hate the replica crowd so much (much more than Tom S. because he does supply parts to people restoring cars too) because they are prepared to pay more than the restoration crowd for these "bottom of the Ferrari tree" models ... because ofcourse whatever they pay is chicken feed compared to a real 250GTO.

Pete

[PSk]

The other thing we have to be really honest about is most of us (myself included) would NOT buy a 250GTE 2+2 if we had enough money to buy say a Lusso, thus the only reason we buy them (or in my case still dream of buying one) is because it is all we can afford.

Thus they really are unloved :-(.

Thus Tom S. because he is running a business is always going to be able to pay more than we are ... and thus destroying the dream for us 60's poor Ferrari enthusiasts.
Pete

[tyang]

When I bought my 330 America, it was all the money I had for the cheapest V-12 Ferrari I could find. As most of you know I would have loved to have found a Lusso, but it was never a possibility, even when they were selling for $110K in 1999. Since buying and restoring my 330 America, however, I've found it to be a fantastic car. She has tons of torque, all the right noises, and shares all the mechanicals with her more expensive sisters. I've often said that the 2+2s are actually very nice cars, but when coming from a family of supermodels, the average looking girl of the family doesn't have a chance of being noticed!

When I look at old Ferraris, I often think they will become coveted like old Bugattis. Not every Bugatti was a beautiful car, but all of them have become priceless and desireable. They're not making any more of them, and they were built with one family's passion towards design and racing. Not many cars are made anymore with one man's vision, and I believe this is what makes these cars special.

Now, does that mean we should any price one asks for a derelict Ferrari? Absolutely not. As I've mentioned before, the economics of restoring a car plays heavily on how I determine how much should be spent on a project, plus or minus the premium of how badly you want the car. Restoration is not cheap, and it gets worse with a 2+2 car because of the extra seats, extra chrome, and luxury appointments that need to be refurbished. The irony is the cheaper 2+2 car is more expensive to restore!

I bet when Rudy was out in the fields looking at rusted out Bugattis, there was still a limit to how much someone would pay for that wreck of a car. Even Tom S. has a limit.

Tom

[PSk]

Funny how lust for cars is 90% visual, and as you say Tom your 2+2 has grown on you and mechanically is just as good if not better.

But the good looking girls still get all the attention ...

Also interesting that we are including Bugattis in this discussion because unfortunately many of those are no longer as they once were. Thanks to Bugattis being modular it is very easy to swap parts around and end up with a more desirable specification ... only learnt this relatively recently reading a book, and hats off to Bugatti for being ahead of the time in this area.

Unfortunately the end result of this is that to grab your first 60's V12 Ferrari for a restoration project is going to be more expensive than we all would hope, as we just have to pay enough to out bid Tom S. and the replica boys ... and this makes it even more a passion of the heart and completely rediculous investment concept.
Pete

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

The modular concept was part of Ettore's genius. What's nice is that each part was number stamped, therefore traceable to its origins.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[whturner]

Hi Guys.

All the old cars have the same problem, once replacement parts become unavailable. If used parts were not available, some cars would not get restored, Multimillion restorations will make any car from scratch. - most restorations do not have that resource.

For each parts car which is sacrificed, perhaps more than one car can be saved. I can't put numbers on that equation (Cars parted out vs. Cars saved), but it is not a total loss to the car fancier.

I know there are cars represented on this board which have needed a transplant from a parts car. How many of us have been helped by Tom S. and other used parts providers.

Hopefully, the cars thereby saved represent the best of the breed.

Cheers
Warren

[kare]

For each parts car which is sacrificed, perhaps more than one car can be saved. I can't put numbers on that equation (Cars parted out vs. Cars saved), but it is not a total loss to the car fancier.

This is exactly why I am all against replicas. The parted out cars now turn into fakes which consume the hard to find parts, instead of providing them for the survivors. As a result as soon as a "lesser" Ferrari looses one of the vital components, it is as good as gone and spread all over ebay. Some people claim this way they do provide parts for the rest of us, but I diagree: How many extra rear seats do you need?

Though I must admit that PSK is likely right in that very few of us would tinker about a GT/E could be afford any better, I also want to point out that a GT/E is a wonderful car. As a real series production car it was designed much more carefully than any other model before its time and is to my eye a very well proportioned and balanced design - one of very few by Pf. I would never trade mine against a Lusso, which looks like it was quickly designed around a surplus rear window.

Best wishes, Kare

[tyang]

Unfortunately the end result of this is that to grab your first 60's V12 Ferrari for a restoration project is going to be more expensive than we all would hope, as we just have to pay enough to out bid Tom S. and the replica boys ... and this makes it even more a passion of the heart and completely rediculous investment concept.
Pete

When it comes to our hobbies, Passion should drive our decisions, not our investments. Let our heirs worry about the money!

I just finished reading "Wooden Boats," by Michael Ruhlman, and it tells of a Martha's Vineyard boatyard that still builds wooden boats when the world has gone plastic. The craftsman, along with the customers share a passion that goes beyond reason. Spending countless hours fixing rotten timbers on personal projects or getting paid by owners to do the same brings all these people together with a common love. You either get it or you don't. I hope most of you get it with this "car thing," and if we convince a couple more people lurking in the shadows, all the better, but we're not going to change the way the world feels.

Tom

[jsa330]

Tom, my perspective:

2+2 restoration is something that just doesn't interest wealthy enthusiasts, and these cars are left overs.

In any case, Ferraris aren't a poor man's hobby. However, those of us who get into the 2+2's do tend be of much less affluent means, though we're just as passionate as the very rich guys.

Getting too "upside down" or overinvested in a restoration project is meaningful financially, no matter what an armchair idealist or two here would have us all do (mortgage everything to restore a GTE for posterity, perhaps?)

I know, have been there and done that with the agonizing and drawn-out decision to let #5409 go to the insurance company, for which I was roundly chastised, mainly on Fchat.

Most of us here do have to make our automotive decisions with finances at the forefront, like it or not.

Hell, I'm just happy to be on my second Ferrari.

[Michael Bayer]

Well written Tom, spot on.