Fispa fuel pump...

Moderators: 330GT, abrent

mdempsey
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:08 pm
Location: Huntingtown, MD

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by mdempsey »

Very good Tom. Obviously working is most important but I'm curious if you measured the discharge pressure (and or flow) during the problem we saw in Cav and after your repair. Just curious. Obviously the fact that the sediment bowl did not stay filled pointed to the problem. What about the flooding that was occuring at idle with the electric pump performing well? Did you get that fixed or do you still have that issue now when on mechanical only now that it is fixed. Also, isn't it great that we have the option of mechanical, electric, or both? Gotta love redundancy!

regards Mark

PS I am really going to be upset if Montreal comes back and beats Washington. However; Washington has a long and glorious history of choking away big leads!!
User avatar
TOMKIZER
Posts: 412
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:51 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by TOMKIZER »

Hi Mark,

I fixed the carburetor needle and seat problem first, as soon as i got home, I had the spares that Geoff Ohland overnighted to me in Palm Beach, but I didn't need them. I just kept the idle time to a minimum on the way home, something Enzo probably expected of all Ferrari owners, and didn't use the electric pump. The mechanical worked well enough at speed.

When I got home, I changed the needle/seat and that fixed that problem.

I did not measure fuel pressure.

It's all good now.

I don't follow sports, so I don't know what you are talking about in your PS.

Tom K.
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
mdempsey
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:08 pm
Location: Huntingtown, MD

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by mdempsey »

Ask any french speaking canadian up there and they wi?? Know for sure
250GT
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:41 am
Location: germany/holland

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by 250GT »

TomKizer,
Little bit late.
But found explosion drawings of FISPA SUP 150.
but maybe for the next time.
However orientating arms not clearly visible !

C.
Attachments
IMG_1897.jpg
IMG_1897.jpg (58.53 KiB) Viewed 12520 times
User avatar
TOMKIZER
Posts: 412
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:51 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by TOMKIZER »

250GT wrote:TomKizer,
Little bit late.
But found explosion drawings of FISPA SUP 150.
but maybe for the next time.
However orientating arms not clearly visible !

C.
Thanks, Cornelius,

I love exploded views of machines. It must be the mechanical engineer in me. If one looks very closely, it appears that the center hole is lower than the end holes. Since illustrators are normally very careful to represent parts with fidelity, I suspect that it is shown correctly. Anyway, that's the way my pump was and is and it now works very well.

Tom Kizer
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
Stephanm
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:27 pm
Location: Vermont
Contact:

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by Stephanm »

Tom and all,

I have made a little test stand with pressure gauge and have had success making all kinds of configurations work from the original check valves to the goofy looking aluminum disc check valves. I let fuel sit in them overnight to make sure the material holds up and test them over and over to make sure they work.

For some strange reason, the pump stroke is super short so you cannot have any wear in the rocker arm. I buy a long 1/4 drill rod from the hardware store and bore the rocker arm pin bore in the case, the two metal straps (image #2 in the illustration) and the rocker arm. This generally tightens up everything and makes the rocker arm bore round again. I use the excess length of the long drill bit as the new pin, cutting it to length. In order to allow the rocker arm to pivot on the new .250" pin, i run some valve grinding paste in the rocker arm bore to open it up a little until it pivots freely.

I have had many instances where the parts break like the image #2 and the little pins #19. The 3 layer red diaphragm is best to use as it typically makes about 3-5 PSI. I have had terrible luck with the single layer black material. Even though the check valves should regulate the pressure to a certain extent, the black diaphragm makes too much pressure, as much as 12PSI. Also, if you look at the top of the "pull rod" that goes through the diaphragm material, it is hammered over in a crude fashion and I believe that fuel leaks through this area at pressure. Ahhhh!

Overall, these pumps suck and it is another case of Ferrari cars having nice specifications on paper but for some odd reason nothing works. We have 50 year old tractors that have run wide open for thousands of hours on a similar style fuel pump that continue to work perfectly yet after spending hundreds of hours overhauling these FISPA pumps and testing and re-engineering, they typically work for about 3 hours on the car!
User avatar
tyang
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by tyang »

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for your thoughts. Isn't it amazing the mechanical fuel pumps in my Ford never had problems like these FISPA pumps? Some Italian engineering got it all wrong!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
250GT
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:41 am
Location: germany/holland

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by 250GT »

Stephanm wrote:Tom and all,

I have made a little test stand with pressure gauge and have had success making all kinds of configurations work from the original check valves to the goofy looking aluminum disc check valves. I let fuel sit in them overnight to make sure the material holds up and test them over and over to make sure they work.

For some strange reason, the pump stroke is super short so you cannot have any wear in the rocker arm. I buy a long 1/4 drill rod from the hardware store and bore the rocker arm pin bore in the case, the two metal straps (image #2 in the illustration) and the rocker arm. This generally tightens up everything and makes the rocker arm bore round again. I use the excess length of the long drill bit as the new pin, cutting it to length. In order to allow the rocker arm to pivot on the new .250" pin, i run some valve grinding paste in the rocker arm bore to open it up a little until it pivots freely.

I have had many instances where the parts break like the image #2 and the little pins #19. The 3 layer red diaphragm is best to use as it typically makes about 3-5 PSI. I have had terrible luck with the single layer black material. Even though the check valves should regulate the pressure to a certain extent, the black diaphragm makes too much pressure, as much as 12PSI. Also, if you look at the top of the "pull rod" that goes through the diaphragm material, it is hammered over in a crude fashion and I believe that fuel leaks through this area at pressure. Ahhhh!

Overall, these pumps suck and it is another case of Ferrari cars having nice specifications on paper but for some odd reason nothing works. We have 50 year old tractors that have run wide open for thousands of hours on a similar style fuel pump that continue to work perfectly yet after spending hundreds of hours overhauling these FISPA pumps and testing and re-engineering, they typically work for about 3 hours on the car!
StephanM ,
I am very happy with youre post and the fact TomY start an article again .
I have simelair expierances on the mech pump.
It produced when overhauld about 0.5 Bar thats about 5 parts per inchsq( PSI)
so that should be enough.
But at about 3 days or sometimes 2 month( with luck) the motor stop in front of a trafficlight.
So the pressure is going slowly away or better: dont keep the pressure.
well the solution on the road is simply, switch on the electr. Fispa
The same problems happens when driving faster averige 160KM/h about close to 100 MPH
so need supply of Electr, pump on highways.
I have a hand full of those mech pumps and all fresh repaired-
Than it starts all over again: replacing
I could live with this phenomenan but how long does my electr pump survive this game?
In the mean time it takes me less than 10 min to exchange , but thats only possible by the fact the mech pump is cam. driven.
For those who must put there body on the ground its horrible.
I give my thought during the discusion.
as always some pics for the viewers.
C.
Attachments
cam driven FispaPump
cam driven FispaPump
IMG_2393.jpg (65.34 KiB) Viewed 12283 times
Spaghetti wire is from the Temp warninglight on the dashboard 56-58
Spaghetti wire is from the Temp warninglight on the dashboard 56-58
IMG_0954.jpg (74.65 KiB) Viewed 12283 times
Michael Bayer
Posts: 699
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 7:22 am

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by Michael Bayer »

Tom I just redid mine It took about two hours (the car was on my lift which REALLY helps)Here are some additional thoughts.

The trick is getting every bit of motion out of a very small stroke, so any wear on a moving part really matters

Take it apart and see what you need, buy only those items that you need, the full kit is quite expensive and frankly some of the hardware in it was worthless, (particularly the clips part #5)

Before you take the pump off the motor remove the access cover (part #4) and with the engine running insure the diaphragm plunger (part #8) is moving (should be about a 1/4 of an inch)

Then pull the two fuel line banjo fittings and the two attachment bolts and remove the entire unit

Be prepared to plug the banjo fitting (Part #29) from the fuel feed line after its removed from the pump to prevent fuel from running out I used a pair of rubber washers and a bolt and nut about the same size as the hole in the fitting

When you separate the top (part#3) and bottom half of the pump (part #6), note that the letters FISPIA are oriented away from the engine block

The master pivot pin (part #20) must be something hard Some moron replaced mine with a bolt that wore and reduced stroke It needs keepers of some sort on both ends The kit came with a nice replacement shaft but two POS half circle clamps that would have never held I used instead a pair of external circlips from Ace Hardware

The two lever links (part #2) have their center holes offset so I assume they could be flipped over to reduce any dead space between their center pin and that actuator paw thing (part#2)

The diaphragm (part #8) must be tight as a drum, just like a Weber accelerator pump Mine was intact but stretched and with the short stroke no meaningful fluid was being pushed

The valves (parts # 27+28) and springs (parts# 15,16, 17) are pretty hardy and a visual inspection will tell you if they were working, need cleared or replaced

My cover screws (part #30) had a washer like shoulder built on them and there were no separate washers (part#24)

I assume if the diaphragm shaft (part #8) hole in the lower frame (part #7) for is too worn, the lateral freedom of motion will also degrade the stroke, necessitating installing a brass bushing

Don’t forget to grease the mechanicals when you put it back together I used white lithium spray grease

I think that is it.
Michael J. Bayer
330GT s/n 9727
365GTC4 s/n 14943
Dino Spider s/n 1193
User avatar
tyang
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by tyang »

As always, thank everyone for their great tips!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
User avatar
tyang
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by tyang »

A fellow viewer sent this old FAF printout for rebuilding the pump. Thanks Yves.
page 1
page 1
fuelpmp16.jpg (216.6 KiB) Viewed 12201 times
page 2
page 2
fuelpmp17.jpg (195.6 KiB) Viewed 12200 times
'63 330 America #5053
Michael Bayer
Posts: 699
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 7:22 am

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by Michael Bayer »

Tom This may be the definitive treatise on rebuilding these! One other nit, I added lock washers to the two studs that mount the pump to the engine.

Has anyone tried flipping the actuators levers as I posed above to get more stroke?
Michael J. Bayer
330GT s/n 9727
365GTC4 s/n 14943
Dino Spider s/n 1193
User avatar
tyang
Posts: 4060
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by tyang »

Hi Michael,

I've heard (here and from other sources) that flipping the steel plates can cause too much pressure on the bars and break the mechanism. If this is the only solution, care should be taken in making sure there isn't to much force on the lever and related hardware. One may have to get a thicker phenolic spacer so the difference in movement can be taken up there.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
250GT
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:41 am
Location: germany/holland

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by 250GT »

Tom ,already showed in his good article how new flued produces debris in the output chamber of the Fispa mech. pump(mp)
I was loosing pressure from jan. till july 2010.
to find out a real goood diagnose can take weeks.
You have to go through all parameter.
the debris which looks like (dental) calculus is also find on the valves
the rubber seals are hard like stone after several years despite wet fuel envirement.
this could could be a reason of loosing pressure.
my car drives at idle 500 rpm which is low( fully balance engine) to let it run at 900 rpm gives more preformance of the pump of course
but I would like to know why it was starving at a traffic light at 500 rpm( at 900 rpm no problems). and no real good running at 6000 rpm.
after cleaning everthing the pressure was good again, but at high rpm problems remain.
first some pics.
Attachments
maybe calculus can be seen
maybe calculus can be seen
IMG_2804.jpg (53.36 KiB) Viewed 12104 times
IMG_2802.jpg
IMG_2802.jpg (36.75 KiB) Viewed 12102 times
250GT
Posts: 968
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:41 am
Location: germany/holland

Re: Fispa fuel pump...

Post by 250GT »

After over hauling every thing with org, new valve and springs , the motor had still problems at high speed.
So not enough preformance of the pump alone,without extra support of the electr,.Fuelpump not possible to drive fast.
so I checked the stoke :the rocker arm was heavy hammerd the pertinac spacer was already reduced to only 4 mm .
I decided to let my maschinst to filled ( thats prisonner work) a new hand made rocker arm.
a new spacer 6.5 mm was replaced and and all problems are solved till now.
the rocker arm comes visuelly more out of the housing see pic below.
Attachments
diff, between new arm and old one.  visual?
diff, between new arm and old one. visual?
IMG_2801.jpg (55.12 KiB) Viewed 12099 times
heavy hammerd rocker arm on the right
heavy hammerd rocker arm on the right
IMG_2806.jpg (59.86 KiB) Viewed 12098 times
Post Reply