400i (A) tranny

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fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

400i (A) tranny

Post by fest »

interesting weekend
(to say the least)

Transmission (Automatic) 'went south' on me...

took car to memorial day bbq
(ok so I was showing off a little)
was working OK on the way there
(ok, so I took the 'back' way, so I could 'excercize' the car a little)

when I left
got to the bottom of the hill
stopped at the intersection
and it dropped out of gear
gave it a little gas
and it dropped back in
(albeit roughly)

OH OH
NOT GOOD

worked ok most of the way
until I hit the traffic
then it started making REAL scary noises
and behaving erratically

it was beginnig to get dark
and then it began to rain
this could get real ugly real fast

BUT

it made it back to the shop
Just before it got real dark and rainy
PHEW

(this was on Sat)

spent all day today under the car...
all ready to pull

my plan is to pull the tranny
bring it to the best local shop I can find
and not mention the word FERRARI
until I have a written estimate in hand
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tyang
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Post by tyang »

Yikes!

Sounds maybe you were low on transmission fluid? I had a Mustang with an automatic, and when it had a leak and was low on fluid, she would not get in gear until I raised the revs. I'm sure the jolt does bad things to the internals.

Keep you fingers crossed!

Tom
simonc
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Location: St Albans, UK
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Post by simonc »

Just a thought that may save you a lot of work. Before you pull the trans I would suggest that you check the vacuum line from the vacuum pump to the change up switch.

There is a black metal vacuum pump on teh front of inlet camshaft on top of the left-hand bank of the engine (looking at it from the front towards the rear. On this is a small diameter cloth-braided rubber vacuum line that runs down the chassis by the dipstick, along the main chassis tube towards the rear and then connects to the change-up switch on the gearbox. Disconnect the line from the vacuum switch and check you have vacuum at the gearbox end with the engine running, or put your thumb over the gearbox end and have someone blow an airline into the top end and see if it will hold pressure. You just try undoing the 'engine-end' and sucking in it to see if you can create a vacuum yourself. If this line is leaking then it may be the cause of your problems, it was certainlty the cause of a heart-stopping moment problem on my 400A.

One word of warning - If you remove the vacuum switch then the gearbox oil will drain out. The same will happen if you pull out the gearbox dipstick tube. Just don't ask how I know.

Hope this helps,

Simon
1977 400 Auto in London
fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

wish it was that easy

Post by fest »

thanks for the support, guys!

I wish it was just the fluid level
(nope, it was still full)
did not have any major leaks

or the Vacuum Modulator
(nope, no vacuum leaks, either)

the tranny was making scary noises
that indicated major problems

removal of the Pan revealed
(along with plenty of grime and sludge)
a healthy (or UN healthy) pile of metal shavings
OUCH

not really a big issue, at this point
as the tranny was pretty beat from the get go
I knew a re-build was indicated (at some point)
looks like it came sooner than expected (hoped)

I guess I could (should) have babied it
to get me through the summer
(that was the plan)
and do the major work over the winter

but HEY it's a FERRARI
once I got behind the wheel
it was
Damn the torpedoes...
FULL SPEED AHEAD!!!


so much for my plan...

any how
I have located the local auto tranny guru
who can re-build the tranny to the correct specs
(that is one of the bennies of the 400iA, it uses a GM Automatic)
and can even re-build the Torque Converter
so I can retain the origianal stall speed
(as it has metric fasteners it may be a rare beast)

Ferrari UK has all the Ferrari parts I need
(including parts to re-build the Tailshaft,
which is a Ferrari Part)

the real killer are the hoses
(from tranny to lines and lines to cooler)
over $300 for 4 little 10" hoses
(the bearing and seals are less than $20!)

OK
I know, I know,
FERRARI prices
nice hoses, any how, braided steel,
with crimped on fittings
(as opposed to cheap rubber hose from a reel
and cheezy hose clamps)

so
this weekend
OUT IT COMES
simonc
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Post by simonc »

Sorry to hear that but the rebuild isn't too expensive thanks to GM. Why not get the braided lines made up by a specialist. I would think that any race team could probably do this.

Please tell me how you got the gearbox pan off. I was going to change my oil and, as there is no drain plug, I was going to drop the oil pan off and change the oil filter at the same time. I bought the filter and the gasket but could not see how to remove the pan without some pretty major dismantling.
fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

pan easy

Post by fest »

Simon:

'dropping' the pan is relatively easy
(this is a common service item on US cars
so maybe we are just used to it?)

any how,
start with the bolts on the rear of the pan
then undo one at a time on either side
(working towards the front)
this way you can control the geyser of fluid
(somewhat, be prepared for a mess)
place the catch basin under the rear of the pan
loosen the last bolts on the front of the pan
but do not remove just yet
gently pry on the pan (if it is not already loose)
and STAND BACK
let the pan hang by the front bolts

then, when most of the fluid has drained
remove the rest of the bolts
let the rest drain out
clean the pan, fit new filter and gaskets, etc.
PAY ATTENTION to the way the pickup attaches to the filter
(doing this improperly may cause tranny to suck air, and not work)

I recommend using an air nozzle to blow out the cooler, too

I was considering an aftermarket pan
with a drain plug, and maybe an alloy one with cooling fins
(to match the oil sump)
but I think I will just stick with the 'stocker'

the reason I believe the drain plug was omitted
was intentional to help make sure the filter was changed
(if there was a plug, it would be tempting to just change fluid
and ignore filter)

changing the filter and fluid is a pretty striaghtforward job
(of course having an air rachet made it a lot easier)
I am sure you will have no trouble at all
as stated, this is a basic maintainece procedure, stateside

_________________________________

I have a question for you (and the gang)
have you had one of these motors out
and on a stand (with OUT) the transmission attached
but with the accessories on the front

my question is this
with the engine supported by the motor mounts ONLY
with NO transmission
is the engine pretty well balanced?

or will it want to fall one way or the other
(towards H2O Pump or Flywheel)

my concern is that when I remove the tranny
the engine will fall and damage something
(as it will be without suppport of tranny, torque tube etc)

I plan to block up the engine
when I remove the tranny
(both fore and aft)
but it would be nice to know (before hand)
which way the engine is going to want to go
(or will it stay put?)
fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

balancing act

Post by fest »

got the tranny out today
>>phew<<
bringing it to the local tranny 'guru' on mon

to answer my own question:

the engine seems to balance just fine
without the tranny attached

it seems like it wants to tilt forward (a little)
but not in a major way (would not slam down, certainly)

I took the precaution of blocking up the engine
both from the flywheel housing side
and the water/oil pump housing side
but this was really unneccessary
(btr safe than sorry, tho)

getting at some of the bolts was pretty tricky
I would advocate removal of the distributor
to access the bolts on that side
(I did not, as I had a 20 yr old buddy from work helping me)
that and I rented a transmission jack
fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

pan and bolts

Post by fest »

could not resist:
http://www.bmracing.com/products/trans_ ... pPans.html
64616
rationale:
it will match the cast alloy engine oil sump
so much better than the stock steel stamping
(ok so it will look cool, too)
has the advantage of the drain plug (as discussed)
stock depth, as deeper pan would hang too low
(and I did not want to mess with modifying the pickup, either)

those ugly stock black pan bolts
would look out of place on my pretty new pan
(now wouldn't they)
so time for some S/S fasteners
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... 430%2D0401

all I need now is a new gasket
I am going to try FEL-PRO as they have
(I think) a 'rubber' gasket
which is superior to Cork IMHO
P/N TOS 18621

along with the new Braided Stainless Tranny Cooler Lines
(yes, I ordered the Ferrari ones)
I will be STYLIN!!
(at least in an under the car sort of way)
fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

update

Post by fest »

got the tranny back this week :)

I chose Gerald's transmission
(geh rald NOT jeh rald BTW)

he started his shop back in 19 hundred and 61
(the same year I was born)
so I figured me may know a thing or 2 about auto trannies
(never seen one out of a FERRARI til now, tho)
most of the guys workin at his shop were about his age, too
(also a good sign)

one tip he had was to INDEX the Torque Converter
BEFORE installing Transmission
I found this to be a sound suggestion,
so I am passing it along

(sorry no pics, I forgoted)

the idea is to index the Input (or Output?) shaft on the Torque Converter
that is, to make sure it is running true in respect to the Crankshaft
and more importantly, the Transmission
if it is out of true and 'wobbles'
that can cause premature failure of seals and bearings
(and be a source of discernable driveline vibration, as well)
the FLEX Plate is aptly named:
it does exactly that
it can (and DOES I found out) flex and get bent
causing the Torque Converter to 'wobble'
in respect to the Center Line of the Drive Train

the procedure is as follows:

I removed the Access Cover under the Flywheel
(which provides access to view the Timing Marks)
I constructed a piece of 2" Angle Iron with 2 holes
(spaced the same as the Cover Plate holes)
and attached this to the Bellhousing
one side flat (horizontal) against the flat on the Bell Housing
and the angle part forward facing down (vertical)
(using the same Screws as the Cover Plate)
I left room to be able to access the teeth on the Flywheel
(more on this later)

the vertical face of the Angle Iron
was used to provide for the attachment
of a Magnetic Base Fixture for the Dial Indicator
(courtesy of FRED in the Machine Shop)
I felt that the Dial Indicator should be attached to the Engine
(not the Frame, even though that would be more convieneint)
so any Engine movement would not be translated
into Dial Indicator movement
(and it seems this logic was correct)

I then installed (bolted)
the Torque Converter to the Flex Plate
(no Tranny, just the Converter)

I pulled out the spark plugs
(and squirted oil down the holes)
to allow for easier turning over of the Engine

I then made sure the Dial Indicator was set up properly
so that I could get an accurate reading of the runout
(in the up and down or side to side axis, NOT in and out)

I then had my 'assistant' crank the engine over
(with the starter) while I observed...
the runout was approx .015" to .020" !!!
(this against the .002" recommended by Gerald)
seems Gerald is onto something here

I then noted the smell of Gas
and realized that I had neglected to disconnect
the Injection Relay(s)
which is advocated by the Workshop Manual
to avoid flooding the Engine
(especially with the Cold Start Injector)
each time the Engine is clicked over
this is dangerous, as it dilutes the Oil with raw Gas

at this point, I had enough to go on
so I proceeded to turn the Engine over by hand
(with the help of my able Assistant)
using a screwdriver on the Teeth of the Flywheel
(that is why I made sure not to block access with Angle Iron)

I was thusly able to ascertian the 'high spot'
which was then duly marked

Gerald suggested a prybar
backed up with a socket
to bend the Flex Plate slightly
until the Converter runs true
(easier said than done!!)

I opted for backing up a Breaker Bar
with some 3/4" Oak I fished out of the Dumpster
(to protect the prized Alloy Castings)

I was a little over zealous, initially (I think)
and bent it too far the OTHER way,
but after several tries, I did actually manage to get
the runout at about .002" to .003"
by bending (actually straightening, I guess)
the Flex Plate.

the location of the Torque Converter
was duly marked on the Flex Plate
(with handy Spray Paint)
before removal
(to make sure it is replaced in the same orientation)

inserted back into the Transmission
now ready for final installation
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Dr. Ian Levy
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Location: United Kingdom
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400iA tranny

Post by Dr. Ian Levy »

Hello Fest
I have had the motor of my 365 GTC 4 out & without the transmission the balance should be similar
If you use a stand as recommended/designed by Jon Brent the egine will turn over almost totally.(I can send you a pic if you wish. but I don't know how to send it to the site
You will need to support under the water/oil pump housing with a block or similar or design the engine mounts with a locking pin on each side
I f you need pics please let me knoew
Regards
Ian Levy
Manchester
UK
fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

tilt

Post by fest »

dear doctor:

thanks for the support
(no pun inended)

I have not taken the engine out
(yet?)
but when i took off the transmission
(leaving the engine in the car)
the engine did want to go towards the pump side
not the transmission side
I had blocked up that side,
and it seemed to be ok
the engine did seem pretty stable, tho
maybe the motor mounts helped to keep it in place (?)

at any rate
the transmission is IN
all hooked up, etc
(polished pan looks COOL)

ran the car on jack stands
transmission seemed to work ok
(still a tad noisy, tho !?!?!)
no leaks (so far)

road test tomorrow,
then I bring it back to the tranny 'guru'
next week for a 'look see'
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tyang
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Post by tyang »

Hi Fest,

Great work on the tranny! Hopefully the noise requires a simple adjustment.

Tom
fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

not bad

Post by fest »

took the car for a ride today
(ok, only around the block!)

transmission worked good
and was pretty quiet, actually
at least from inside the car
(especially compared to BEFORE)

I fist listened to the tranny
from underneath the car (up on stands),
maybe that is why I thought it was noisy

the tranny still is somewhat noiser than I am used to
(like one in a CADILLAC)
but I think that may be
because in the Ferrari,
the tranny is practially in your lap!
fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

what next

Post by fest »

now I find
that the Bracket
that goes between
the Bell Housing
(on the Engine)
and the Transmisson
(also holds the Torque Converter Cover)

DOES NOT FIT !?!?!?!

seems that the
(awesome)
cast aluminum aftermarket Transmission Pan
that I have opted to install
is thicker (wall) than the stock stamped steel one
and does not leave enough room for the Bracket

wah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could not bear to remove the pan
as it is just too purdy
so I have left the Bracket and Cover off
(for now)

(I had the Cover Powder Coated this week BTW
and it came out AWESOME)

My for excuse for leaving the Bracket and Cover off
is that I have to bring the tranny back to the rebuilder
for a look see (and a road test ;)
and he might need to look in there, right?

need to bring back to him any how,
as the 2nd to 3rd shift is ok
but 1st to 2nd is too 'sloppy'
needs adjustment

My options on the Bracket Dilemna:

Back to stocker pan?
(yuk)

Modify aftermarket pan?
(too pretty)

Modify Bracket?
(think so)

we have a Steel Fabricator
we use at work extensively
that does excellent work

am confident that they can modify bracket
so that no-one could tell
(without a side by side)
after being powder coated
(let it be our secret, OK?)

shortening the bracket about 1/4"
should be enough, I reckon
fest
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:59 pm

continued

Post by fest »

brought car to tranny 'guru' today

transmission was working ok
but 1-2 shift was way early
under partial acceleration
and too 'sloppy' under load

tranny guy sez
this is due to the
replacement vacuum modulator
tuned for 'granny' shifitng

apparently what is required
is to remove the vacuum hose
stick a screwdriver in the vacuum outlet
and adjust the modulator
(due to a scheduling snafu,
I was unable to observe this procedure)

he told me he adjusted screw
three fill turns
(in, I believe)

this raised the 1-2 upshift
to a more appropriate rpm level
and made it a little more snappy
as well

all that is left now, is the bracket
(and parking brake cable)
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