Fuel Pump Problem?

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gsjohnson
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Fuel Pump Problem?

Post by gsjohnson » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:12 pm

This morning I went to start my 65 330 GT and it wouldn't start. After a lot of scewing around I detemined that there was no fuel getting to the carbs. I also noticed that the glass fuel filter bowl at the pressure regulator was only a quarter of the way filled. I jacked up the back end of the car and found no noise from the electric fuel pump indicating that it wasn't operating. I pulled the fuse box cover and found all of the fuses to be good. Is there anything common to this failure that you guys could point me to first? I'm thinking to remove the fuel pump and bench test it. I'm also thinking that I could open it up and see if there are any contacts that may be bad. Any ideas on how to stop the fuel flow from the banjo fittings when removing the pump? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997

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tyang
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Post by tyang » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:31 pm

Hi GS,

The first thing I would do is put a test light on the fuel pump terminal to make sure you've got voltage at the pump. Next, I'd get a hammer, and try tapping/hitting the electric fuel pump in the back of the car. Sometimes this will free up the plunger to get it working again.

Usually, when the fuel pump has to come out, you'll find you just filled up. You can try to find a bolt, nut, and a couple of fiber washers to try to stop the fuel from coming out of the banjo fitting, but it will inevitably leak. The best thing is to drain the fuel below the level of the pick up tube, and crack the fitting on the fuel pick up. Fuel should siphon back into the tank, and you can then open the fittings at the fuel pump with only a little fuel spillage.

Good luck.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

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330GT
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Post by 330GT » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:28 am

The usual problem is dirty points. You might get away with cleaning them on the car.

See http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari/P ... icPump.htm and
http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari/c ... .htm#FISPA for some pictures and ideas.

You can remove the wiring connection and then take off the plastic top to expose the points w/o having to loosen any fuel lines.

Unless your mechanical fuel pump is in poor shape, the car should run fine on it once it's been cranked enough to fill the float bowls. On one car, the glass bowl didn't want to purge itself of air, so eventually we took it off and filled it by hand. Once that was done, it stayed full.
Regards, Kerry
http://www.330gt.com 330 GT Registry
http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari 250 PF Coupe 1643GT, 330 GT 2+2 8755GT, 308 GTS 23605

xs10shl
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Post by xs10shl » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:35 am

I'd second a few well placed whacks with a hammer. I've actually known it to work. Won't fix the problem long term, but if you can get it going again, you can disassemble the line at the fuel bowl, and use the limping pump to drain the tank. (I've never done it this way myself - I've generally siphoned out the gas - but hey! It probably would work!)

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tyang
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Post by tyang » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:18 am

The hammer trick will not solve your problem, but may get your pump started to prime your carbs and start the car. At 13mpg, you'll run the tank out of gas in no time!

It helps to have a lift to clean the points in the car like Kerry describes. Doing this lying on the ground is no fun, just ask me.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

andrew
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Post by andrew » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:25 pm

You may also want to clean the contacts on your ignition switch, which may be inhibiting the current to the pump.
'64 330 America s/n 5109

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gsjohnson
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Post by gsjohnson » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:14 pm

330GT wrote:The usual problem is dirty points. You might get away with cleaning them on the car.

See http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari/P ... icPump.htm and
http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari/c ... .htm#FISPA for some pictures and ideas.

You can remove the wiring connection and then take off the plastic top to expose the points w/o having to loosen any fuel lines.

Unless your mechanical fuel pump is in poor shape, the car should run fine on it once it's been cranked enough to fill the float bowls. On one car, the glass bowl didn't want to purge itself of air, so eventually we took it off and filled it by hand. Once that was done, it stayed full.
Kerry-

Great links...Very helpful
Are you saying that the mechanical pump should be able to start the car with enough cranks? Not the case with mine.

I've got the car on jack stands now and probably won't get to this until the weekend. I'm hoping I can do this in the car without having to remove the pump.

I did get side tracked and decided to remove the rear bumper for a chrome replate, which led to repairing properly the wiring to the license plate lights.

While locating the fuse panel, I discovered that the factory thumb screws had been replaced by standard nuts requiring a wrench to remove the fuse panel cover in the engine bay. Not sure what style or if there are even replacements available to correct this annoyance. Any help here would be appreiated.

This led to the discovery that the Washer Bag is mounted in the incorrect location as it was utilizing the upper fuse panel cover nut/stud to retain it. I'm not sure where the washer bag is suppose to mount on my Interim car (S/N 6997). After veiwing many engine bay pics, I have found that this item is mounted all over the place by their owners. Can anyone tell me where it really should be placed and how it secures?

As you can see, on issue keeps leading to another issue. Of course, I'm probably not telling you guys anything that you don't already know...

Thanks to all for the help.
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
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Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:11 am

Greg,

I would indeed think that the mechanical pump should be able
to start your car with enough cranks. The electric pump is only
to prime the carbs to reduce cranking time. When you drive your
car I assume the electric pump is off? If the mechanical pump
can run your car by itself, it would seem logical that it delivers
enough fuel to be able to start the car given enough cranking
intervals to fill the bowls.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

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330GT
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Post by 330GT » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:03 am

gsjohnson wrote:Kerry-

Great links...Very helpful
Are you saying that the mechanical pump should be able to start the car with enough cranks? Not the case with mine.
Did it used to run just on the mechanical pump? If so, it should start with just cranking (though you might not to stress the starter that much).
gsjohnson wrote:
I've got the car on jack stands now and probably won't get to this until the weekend. I'm hoping I can do this in the car without having to remove the pump.

I did get side tracked and decided to remove the rear bumper for a chrome replate, which led to repairing properly the wiring to the license plate lights.
Been there, done that!
gsjohnson wrote:
While locating the fuse panel, I discovered that the factory thumb screws had been replaced by standard nuts requiring a wrench to remove the fuse panel cover in the engine bay. Not sure what style or if there are even replacements available to correct this annoyance. Any help here would be appreciated.
Parker Hall has reproductions. BTW, I put rubber washers under these (and the air cleaner knurled nuts). They don't need to be tightened as much and the rubber helps prevent vibrations from loosening them.
gsjohnson wrote:
This led to the discovery that the Washer Bag is mounted in the incorrect location as it was utilizing the upper fuse panel cover nut/stud to retain it. I'm not sure where the washer bag is suppose to mount on my Interim car (S/N 6997). After viewing many engine bay pics, I have found that this item is mounted all over the place by their owners. Can anyone tell me where it really should be placed and how it secures?
On Series 2 cars, it mounts on ears on the battery holddown, between the battery and fuse cover.
Here is a picture from a 1964 German magazine of an early series 1 car:
Image
As you can see, it is mounted on brackets near the brake boosters. It is also a different style bag than most I've seen (filler to top, not on the face). Note the German style wing nut on the battery hold-down. This is not an interim car though.
And just to show that nothing is firm for Ferrari's:
Image
This is from a 3/64 French magazine with the washer bag hanging near the rear booster, parallel to the firewall. Note, you can see the fuse box nut fairly well.
gsjohnson wrote:
As you can see, on issue keeps leading to another issue. Of course, I'm probably not telling you guys anything that you don't already know...

Thanks to all for the help.
Regards, Kerry
http://www.330gt.com 330 GT Registry
http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari 250 PF Coupe 1643GT, 330 GT 2+2 8755GT, 308 GTS 23605

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gsjohnson
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Post by gsjohnson » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:38 am

Okay, here's the deal: I had the car transported from Florida to my home in So Cal. I had to meet the transporter down on a main street because I live in the hills and it would be next to impossible for the transporter to manuever his way around mt neighborhood. When I met the transporter, the car was already unloaded and the engine had been started and warmed up. I hopped in the car and took it home, where I parked it in the garage.

The following weekend, I decided to take her on her maiden voyage and the car wouldn't start. Same symptom the car currently has. Long cranking and no starting. At the time, I thought I didn't know how to operate the choke, nor had I had any experience starting these cars. Additionally, I couldn't even locate the choke. After much screwing around (over a 1/2 hour), the car suddenly started. I drove the car for approximately 50 miles that day along Pacific Coast Highway getting use to the feel of the car. I stopped and started the car 2 or 3 times during this road trip with no problems. I then parked the car back in my garage.

This weekend (3 weeks later), a few F-Chat members and I decided to organize a 330/Vintage Ferrari Malibu cruise. I went to start the car that morning and had the same no start problem as before. Only this time the car wouldn't start for the life of me. I now became more focused on why and how the car's fuel and choke system functioned. As I previously posted, the car is getting no fuel. I ended up embarrasingly taking my 996 Carrera to the cruise.

Could both my mechanical and electric fuel pumps be bad? That would seem unusual and quite coincidental to me. By the way, the car ran flawlessly on that first maiden voyage, although I thought the car was slow/sluggish for 300 hp.

Your thoughts?
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997

afwrench
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Post by afwrench » Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:49 pm

I would look to make sure you are getting fuel actually to the pumps ,mech and electric. Clogged line ,filters or perhaps a fuel pick up tube problem [they can crack as I think has been mentioned here ] that shows up with a less than full tank. Pull a line at the carbs and crank the engine. A mechanical pump should push lots of fuel if it is working and getting fuel. Good luck,Mike
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Yale
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Post by Yale » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:49 pm

When I first got my car I had a hard time starting it and it took me a while to translate the Francken English Francois, my mechanic at the time, was telling me. Maybe you do all this but if not; you turn the key so that the electric fuel pump starts to chatter away, after about a minute or so, when the electric pump is ticking rather then chattering you fully depress the gas pedal 8 to 10 times. Then try and start the car which won't catch fully at first and will take a few trys. My car would not start without doing these steps.

You realize none of our cars, (well except maybe Tom's), is in as new condition. So everything is worn, somewhat. That means if you fully reconditioned both your fuel pumps to as new condition and had your ignition system set up optimally, you would have a much easier time starting. Everything in your car is probably working at 60% or so and it all adds up.

I replaced the rubber on my electric fuel pump which made things better...for a while, and then I put in an electronic ignition which made things better...for a while, and then I discovered the the plunger on my mechanical fuel pump was worn and did not push out enough fuel. Not wanting to remove the engine to fix this I put in a stronger electric fuel pump which made things better...for a while..but that while is still in force so far so I am free to deal with the litany of other issues that crop up on a day to day to day basis.

Yale
1964 330GT #6097

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
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Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:52 pm

Greg,

Easily both pumps could be bad. It has actually happened to me twice
now! I have pushed my GTE alongside the 101 Freeway during rush
hour traffic on two occasions, something I've practiced with grace and
composure to the delight of curious onlookers.

Your car should have more get up and go, but remember you need the
revs up to get some action. I highly recommend you go through all
the systems so that you are satisfied evrything is in correct working
order. You will be surprised how poor the state of tune some of these
classics are in. Trust nothing, do it yourself. Great learning opportunity
here!

Rudy van Daalem Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

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John Vardanian
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Post by John Vardanian » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:28 am

Rudy van Daalen Wetters wrote:
It has actually happened to me twice .

Rudy van Daalem Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Same here. Once.

john
PF Coupe

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gsjohnson
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Post by gsjohnson » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:12 pm

Okay, the test light shows that I am NOT getting any power to the electric fuel pump. I believe it was andrew who stated the ignition switch maybe creating this problem and to check the contacts at the ignition switch. Can someone give me more detailed information on this? I'm thinking that it would help to be able to recognize the fuel pump wire. Any hints there?

Additionally, my fuses all appear to be good. Is there even a fuse for the fuel pump? If so, can someone lead me towards which one?...As the script is in Italian and gives me zero clues. Any help there would also be appreciated.
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997

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