Coils/Resistors Wiring

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Lowell
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Post by Lowell » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:34 am

330GT wrote: Lets see. Perhaps you should change the spark plug wires too. Then you might as well wrinkle paint the tubes while the wires are out. Since you are already wrinkle painting, the valve covers probably need it. Now that the valve covers are off, might as well re-torque the heads and adjust the valves along with checking the valve adjustment screws for wear.
... .
Ah, but Kerry, you forgot the new spark plug extenders, having the
distributors timed, getting new shinny cam cover nuts, cleaning the
carb bodies, making the carb linkage nice and black, making a tool to
take off the power steering pulley pump.

What did I forget? I do remember that it took me six weeks, and
I started to just re-torque the heads.
Lowell Brown
1966 Gold 330 2+2 Series II

Lowell
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Post by Lowell » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:38 am

Oh, I did forget: Paint the coils, paint the resistors, have your
wife make little numbers on her computer with photo paper
for the distributor caps.
Lowell Brown
1966 Gold 330 2+2 Series II

kare
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Post by kare » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:12 am

Sorry my sarcasm, but I really don't get it. People buy all kinds of fake stickers to make them car appear original and then feel pretty happy about the idea of replacing the original equipment with electric ignition...? I could not care less for the stickers that aren't there (what is gone is gone) but would NEVER put in a modern ignition system unless the old system was missing and there was no other way to get the car going again. That is exactly why I'll probably install a set of Bosch Blue coils and short the ballast resistors, but that's it. Proper Marelli's are not easy to find, it seems. Once serviced the old system should be good for the next 50'000 miles or so. More than I'll ever drive anyway... Best wishes, Kare
250 GT 2+2 3197/GT

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tyang
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Post by tyang » Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:19 am

kare wrote:Sorry my sarcasm, but I really don't get it. People buy all kinds of fake stickers to make them car appear original and then feel pretty happy about the idea of replacing the original equipment with electric ignition...? I could not care less for the stickers that aren't there (what is gone is gone) but would NEVER put in a modern ignition system unless the old system was missing and there was no other way to get the car going again. That is exactly why I'll probably install a set of Bosch Blue coils and short the ballast resistors, but that's it. Proper Marelli's are not easy to find, it seems. Once serviced the old system should be good for the next 50'000 miles or so. More than I'll ever drive anyway... Best wishes, Kare
Hi Kare,

It's a debate that is really up to personal preference. I drove Michael Greenspan's 330 America with an MSD ignition installed, and felt that it started quicker, may have even ran better compared to my 330 America, but that's very subjective. I have considered changing over to Electronic Ignition, but have decided to leave well enough alone. If I start having problems, then I will reconsider. Your point is well taken on how many miles we plan to drive these cars. Some owners I know have put tens of thousands of miles on their cars, and installing a transistor ignition would make sense for consistent spark.

On the sticker topic, if the Ferrari badge on your boot lid was missing, would you buy a replacement, or feel what is gone is gone? I have a problem with "over stickering" the car, but it's all up to the individual.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

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tyang
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Post by tyang » Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:21 am

An interesting note on my research on Electronic ignition, MSD stands for Multiple Spark Discharge, and they claim when the points trigger their box to fire off the coil, multiple sparks are fired during each event. As RPMs rise, dwell is shortened, so it becomes impossible for the MSD box to give multiple sparks. Above say 3000 rpm, one spark is given at each event. Considering Ferraris run most of their lives above 3000 rpm, the advantages of MSD might not be better than a competitor. Just a thought.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

kare
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Post by kare » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:32 am

tyang wrote:It's a debate that is really up to personal preference.
Absolutely - and even purism comes in many shapes and sizes. I am very sloppy with cosmetic detail - I think I am a typical "Yurp" to whom dirt and patina are synonyms - but insist that everything must work exactly the way they were designed to work. Just to show the full range of opinions I wanted to raise my voice to show that there are also those who don't think converting to electric ignition just for the heck of it is a very good idea - and it may as well be that it does not provide any added value.
Your point is well taken on how many miles we plan to drive these cars. Some owners I know have put tens of thousands of miles on their cars, and installing a transistor ignition would make sense for consistent spark.
30-40 years ago people drove tens and tens of thousands of miles in cars of very low build quality, with kids in the back seat in all kind of weather, with little if any service to the distributor - and I have hardly ever heard of a problem.

On the vintage car scene most people seem to think points are unrealiable but still almost all the problems I've heard of have been related to lack of service and/or long storage. Most distributors need to be lubricated quite frequently or the bottom bearing and/or the cam follower wears out (Most distributors do not have top bearings, like the Marelli used by Ferrari). On the other hand it should at all times be noted that gap (or dwell angle) is just a secondary measure and good for adjusting a single point set-up. Multi-point set-up needs further checking to ensure that sparks are really devided evenly over the rotation. I have a hunch that many people dealing with a multi-point set-ups don't really know how to set it up. We shall see how I'll do: soon I'll be off to my garage to put mine back together... One thing is for sure: it will be almost impossible to mess things up worse than the pair of hands that serviced my distributors the last time they were worked upon.
On the sticker topic, if the Ferrari badge on your boot lid was missing, would you buy a replacement, or feel what is gone is gone? I have a problem with "over stickering" the car, but it's all up to the individual.
Yes, it is. It is also a very good question. Badges are easy though: you can always try to find original replacements. I find stickers and paint stamps more problematic: after faking a few how are you supposed to know which ones are original?

And yes, I know I have a very strict and complicated view on these things. Generally I am not restoring my car; for me "to restore" is a synonym with "to destroy what is original" and I try to preserve as much of the originality as possible. I love all the gunk, maybe I have been inhaling it too much... :o)

Best wishes, Kare
250 GT 2+2 3197/GT

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tyang
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Post by tyang » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:10 am

Your points all well taken (no pun intended).

When it comes to modifying the car with modern components, I'm constantly re-evaluating where I stand. Too many modifications, and our Vintage Cars will no longer feel like old cars, but on relying on poor design that's beyond its service life is sometimes masochistic.

All the parts are available for Marelli distributors, and there is an accomplishment when one gets the points phased and firing right where they should without the aid of modern electronics.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

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gsjohnson
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Post by gsjohnson » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:57 am

I'm not sure stressing your driving pleasure while driving your vintage Ferrari for the sake of utilizing an unobtainable Marelli resistor is worth the risk, or headache as it may turn out. I want the pleasure of driving my car and I want it to look as beautiful as possible while trying to retain as much of the originality as possible. Originality does not necessarily equal grime and grease in my book. I don't draw a strict line in the sand, but adding a reproduction Marelli coil sticker is part of the process for me. I may even paint the Bosch blue coils red and add the Marelli stickers. It's not about trying to fool someone. It's about clean and detailed work which I pride myself in. Not many want to fumble thru grease while working on their cars, calling the grease original as the reason you don't clean it. In actuality, the grease is not original as it didn't leave the factory that way. I contemplate every bit on my car that I intend to repair, detail or modify very carefully before doing so, always trying to retain the Ferrari flavor whenever possible.

I came from the Shelby/Mustang arena and restored over 15 thoroughbred cars, some winning gold in MCA and SAAC, but those cars were the least amount of fun. I gradually migrated towards the restomod side and MCA began to open up classes for these cars. The last Ford restoration I did was Parnelli Jone's street Boss 302 and we restored that car with a Trans Am mod theme. That car was far from original, but it was a real Boss 302 retaining its' Boss specific parts. That car was featured in every purist Ford magazine, because it was a beautiful driver. I have one more very special 60s muscle Ford waitng in the wings that will be my last Ford restoration that I hope to get to one of these days.

Like Tom stated in so many words...To each his own.
Kare maybe I have been sniffing to much paint as well.
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997

whturner
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Post by whturner » Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:51 pm

afwrench wrote:My 2 cents re : resistors. My C4 was having major running issues,after getting warmed up she would go off song, and as I went through the diagnostic list I checked the resistors and found that the current flow was intermittant. I backed off all the nuts on the resistors so the posts were loose and soaked them with contact cleaner .I then dried them and soaked them with contact enhancer ,dried and tightened all the nuts. Recheck showed them behaving as they should. Solved my problems . Good luck, Mike
Hi Mike:

Is that the same contact cleaner we used on TV tuner contacts and similar - wonder how it would work on the fuse box in a Ferrari? It is supposed to resist contact corrosion as well as sleaning the contacts.

CU in a couple of days
Warren
330 GT Series II sn 10069

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Yale
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Post by Yale » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:46 pm

I read a book called America Unchained by Dave Gorman, a Brit who wanted to buy a '60's American car and drive across the U.S. without buying anything at a chain store type place. Even gasoline. It was nothing special as a book but one of the points I got out of it, as his car broke down over and over again with relatively minor problems, was his comment that in the 60's when his car was new it was not uncommon for many people to know how to work on their own car. Cars were not as reliable then and you would not have been able to keep it on the road if you couldn't do at least some of your own work.

Of course he couldn't do any of his own work (like me I guess), and as such that realization came to him after the fifth breakdown only halfway across.

Best,

Yale
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
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gsjohnson
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Post by gsjohnson » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:03 pm

Okay I removed the distributors, coils and the resistors today. The points don't look as bad as I initially thought, but there is a small amount of pitting. The service records indicate they were replaced 2000 miles ago. Do you guys think filing them will be okay, as Tom suggested? I am just using them as a triggering device for the MSDs.

I wondered why the coils appeared lose on the brackets to the distributors, so when I was removing them I discovered that both coil brackets were cracked and coming apart at the bolt hole mounts. One even fell to the floor underneath car when I losened one of the bolts. That couldn't have been helping their operation while vibrating going down the road.

I placed the units on the bench and performed an ohm resister test.
Left side coil: 1.1 ohms
Left side resisitor: 0.5 ohms
Right side coil: 0.6 ohms
Right side resistor: 0.4 ohms

It doesn't appear that these assemblies are up to snuff.
I also noticed that Rutlands shows two types of points for the 330. Long and short spring styles. Can someone help with this? That is, if I really should even replace them. More guigance would be appreciated. Thank you
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997

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330GT
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Post by 330GT » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:27 pm

gsjohnson wrote:...
I also noticed that Rutlands shows two types of points for the 330. Long and short spring styles. Can someone help with this? That is, if I really should even replace them. More guigance would be appreciated. Thank you
Since you are putting in MSDs, you probably don't need to replace the points since they are no longer switching as much current. However, if you do, you need a pair of each. One long lead and one short lead per distributor. The difference is in the wire length, not spring length.
Regards, Kerry
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gsjohnson
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Post by gsjohnson » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:07 pm

Thanks for the advise Kerry. I have to buy one set of points as I found a broken tension spring on one of the sets.

On another note, I pulled out an old MSD 6AL ignition box that I use to run on one of my Boss 302s and reviewed the instructions. I have some questions for you guys after reading the instructions:

1) The instructions state that this MSD box is for even fire 6 cylinders engines and another type is needed for odd fire 6 cylinder engines. Can some clarify this and tell me whether half of the 12 cylinder engine is either even or odd fire?

2) There is also an instruction to remover the trailing set of points on dual point distributors. True?

As usual, thanks in advance
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997

kare
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Post by kare » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:04 pm

Ferrari is an even firing engine. The distributor fires at every 60 distributor degrees. Many V6-engines are odd firing engines, meaning that three pairs of firings are evenly placed at 120 degrees but the primary and secondary firings follow very soon after the primary firing.

1) Ferrari distributor fires at 60, 120, 180, 240, 300, and 360 degrees (distributor rotation)

2) A distributor of a a typical odd-fire V6 may fire at 90, 120, 210, 240, 330 and 360 degrees.

Trailing points mean the secondary points of a HEI type distributor, where parallel points run at the same time with the other (trailing) set only slightly retarded. This is done to put the closing and opening arc to different set of points, so they run cooler and don't wear as fast.

On Ferrari each point fires three cylinders per cycle, so there are no trailing points.

Best wishes, Kare
250 GT 2+2 3197/GT

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gsjohnson
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Post by gsjohnson » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Thank you Kare. Very much appreciated.
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997

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