Help! Should the seller fix these things?

Moderators: 330GT, abrent

Post Reply
GEODAVKY
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:40 pm

Help! Should the seller fix these things?

Post by GEODAVKY » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:18 pm

I know, I know. I did wrong. Read on..
The dealer said that the car had been inspected and was in good order and that it included books and tools.
The car arrives and it's missing the tools, jack and manuals and has some problems.
I am able to get a copy of the inspection report from inspecting dealer (who also did the repairs) and I see there were items on the report that were not fixed nor was I told about them.

I complain and the selling dealer says it's an old car and everybody knows that you can expect to find things wrong with an old car that need fixing. I say the things that are wrong go beyond maintenance and that he represented that the car had been inspected, problems found and fixed. In the selling dealer's defense I have to say that he had the shop that did both the inspection and the repairs fix the clutch and replace the battery., which is what they told him would fix those problems. As it turns out replacing the battery and the work done on the clutch did not fix the problems.
1. Car arrives and dies after a few miles after blowing main fuse several time. Have it towed to a shop that works on Ferrari's and find that somebody had run a jumper wire hooking it up incorrectly which caused the fuses to blow.
2. When my guy gets it running he says that it sounds like a thrashing machine and that the valves should be adjusted. This had been noted on the inspection report. Never mentioned to me.
3. Inspection included problems with the clutch so the selling dealer told the inspecting shop to fix it. They installed a new master and slave cylinder in attempt to fix. My repair shop finds that the seals blown after having been driven less than 10 miles. My guy says that the pressure plate is bad and is putting too much pressure on the cylinders causing the seals to blow.
4. Noted on the inspection report that a new battery was needed so one was installed by inspecting dealer. My guy finds that
it probably didn't need a new battery because the generator is not working. Also found the wires to the amp gauge at the dash had been disconnected.
5. The power steering does not work. Noted on the inspection that fluid was low and seemed hard to turn.
6. The lamp flasher lever is broken off and sitting in the tray between the seats when the car arrives. Not noted on inspection.
7. Noted on the inspection, but not fixed is a leaking pinion seal and collapsed transmission mount.
8. Ignition switch must be jiggled back and forth before it catches and starts car.
9. Misc. minor leaks and dry rotted belts noted on report. Not repaired.


The dealer says that he will get me the tools and books. He sends a tool bag with just a few cheap replacement wrenches, wrong hammer, and a few odds and ends. Most of the expensive stuff is missing and no jack. No books.
The car does not have a belly pan. Dealer says they did not come with one when new.

I'm still talking to the selling dealer about what he should do. What do you think he should do? make What should I expect when somebody says that the car has it's books?

User avatar
Yale
Posts: 822
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:56 pm
Location: New York City

Re: Help! Should the seller fix these things?

Post by Yale » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:42 pm

GEODAVKY wrote:I know, I know. I did wrong. Read on..
The dealer said that the car had been inspected and was in good order and that it included books and tools.
The car arrives and it's missing the tools, jack and manuals and has some problems.
I am able to get a copy of the inspection report from inspecting dealer (who also did the repairs) and I see there were items on the report that were not fixed nor was I told about them.

I complain and the selling dealer says it's an old car and everybody knows that you can expect to find things wrong with an old car that need fixing. I say the things that are wrong go beyond maintenance and that he represented that the car had been inspected, problems found and fixed. In the selling dealer's defense I have to say that he had the shop that did both the inspection and the repairs fix the clutch and replace the battery., which is what they told him would fix those problems. As it turns out replacing the battery and the work done on the clutch did not fix the problems.
1. Car arrives and dies after a few miles after blowing main fuse several time. Have it towed to a shop that works on Ferrari's and find that somebody had run a jumper wire hooking it up incorrectly which caused the fuses to blow.
2. When my guy gets it running he says that it sounds like a thrashing machine and that the valves should be adjusted. This had been noted on the inspection report. Never mentioned to me.
3. Inspection included problems with the clutch so the selling dealer told the inspecting shop to fix it. They installed a new master and slave cylinder in attempt to fix. My repair shop finds that the seals blown after having been driven less than 10 miles. My guy says that the pressure plate is bad and is putting too much pressure on the cylinders causing the seals to blow.
4. Noted on the inspection report that a new battery was needed so one was installed by inspecting dealer. My guy finds that
it probably didn't need a new battery because the generator is not working. Also found the wires to the amp gauge at the dash had been disconnected.
5. The power steering does not work. Noted on the inspection that fluid was low and seemed hard to turn.
6. The lamp flasher lever is broken off and sitting in the tray between the seats when the car arrives. Not noted on inspection.
7. Noted on the inspection, but not fixed is a leaking pinion seal and collapsed transmission mount.
8. Ignition switch must be jiggled back and forth before it catches and starts car.
9. Misc. minor leaks and dry rotted belts noted on report. Not repaired.


The dealer says that he will get me the tools and books. He sends a tool bag with just a few cheap replacement wrenches, wrong hammer, and a few odds and ends. Most of the expensive stuff is missing and no jack. No books.
The car does not have a belly pan. Dealer says they did not come with one when new.

I'm still talking to the selling dealer about what he should do. What do you think he should do? make What should I expect when somebody says that the car has it's books?



You didn't buy the car from VSOC did you? This all sounds pretty familiar to me and what you have here is going to end up costing you a steady stream of $6000 - $12,000 worth of repairs every year after you spend the $25,000 or so to get the car to where you can drive it safely. Basically when someone repairs the car the way you have detailed you just should expect a mess o' mess all the way through. Focusing on the belly pan is absolutely the least of your problems. Only a few cars have them at this point, even ones with correctly working power steering, charging, shifting, running. How's the paint? The leather? Any rust at the bottom of the doors? Please let us know who you bought this from.

If your like me you can never really believe someone would out and out lie to you. In my experience they can, (and do). The upside is that though you are in for some financial pain you can still buy a perfect car that ends up needing to have it's engine rebuilt, (see Wayne for that story). And when you are done spending the car will have a lot of new, well functioning systems, (oh wait, it's a Ferrari, you're never done spending.)

Anyway the cars are great and great fun....and greatly expensive to keep em going. That's just the way it is. Folks here know a lot and many of us have had your experience and we'll be happy to help.

Best,

Yale
1964 330GT #6097

User avatar
tyang
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by tyang » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:36 pm

Sorry to hear about your woes. There's no sense in beating you up about getting a THIRD PARTY PRE PURCHASE INSPECTION, but you need to decide if you want to keep the car or see if they will take the car back. I'm not a lawyer and don't know the laws in your State, but it may not even be worth it.

Tool kits and books are very valuable commodities, and often pilfered from cars before they make it to next owner. The owner of the PF Coupe we're working on shipped the tool kit directly to his house instead of risking finding sticky fingers during transport.

The definition of "books and tools" varies widely, so don't expect one person's opinion to be the same as mine. There's a wide range from worthless tools to a full $10K tool kit. I heard complete books can also cost in the thousands.

The broken turn signal stalk could have happened in transport. It's a weak item, and easily broken by a ham fisted driver.

I'm sorry to hear about your problems. For those of us who want to make a living in this business, this is not the way to attract customers to Vintage Ferraris. Buying a Vintage Ferrari often comes at a time when the buyer is ready to realize a dream, and certainly not something that turns into a nightmare. There are a lot of people out there that want to take advantage of this "dream," and I hope you don't despair.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm

Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:35 pm

Welcome to the party, this is your indoctrination. Even with a PPI, the
car could seriously break down 10 miles after delivery. This is how it
is with vintage cars, you roll with the punches and move on. It is
not for everyone, but with persistence and optimism, and some cash,
you will sort that car out. One of the best days of my life was when
I drove my GTE home the day I bought it. I have gone through many
frustrating days since, but finally have it all sorted and am in love with
the car. It is somewhat of a relationship, you build slowly and encounter
the highs and lows together. Your determination will be paramount in the
final analysis. Don't give up, you own a vintage Ferrari now and are
amongst an elite group of individuals that share a common admiration and respect for something quite special.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

User avatar
tyang
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by tyang » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:03 pm

Hi Rudy,

Well put. Better than my analogy of being married to a Super model wife.

There's that brief moment in public when you have her on your arm, and every man in the room envies you, the rest of the time she's spending your money, neglecting the kids, talking trash about you, and making your life difficult!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm

Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:10 pm

Hi Tom,

I hear exactly what you are saying.

My problem is, that I remain a glutton for punishment,
learn things the hard way, and refuse to grow up.
Keeps me young at heart though...

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

Steve Meltzer
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:31 am
Location: with Barney the Beagle boy and Enzo 8995

Re: Help! Should the seller fix these things?

Post by Steve Meltzer » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:21 pm

I just don't think there's an easy way with any of these old cars. Case in point: A year ago I paid "an expert" (who ran a competing shop and is an NCRS judge) to look over a '66 BB A/C Corvette coupe. He missed the fact that the car's AC didn't work (selling dealer said it worked great), that it had been much more badly hit in the front than I was told and a myriad of other things all of which are still emptying my wallet. (good thing it's a 'Vette, at least parts are widely available and generally cheap compared to a Ferrari.)

Take home message: You ain't alone, so stop the self-flagellation. Tho' I'd still get a PPI, I think you gotta go see the car yourself, which neither of us did. As a counterpoint, however, the PPI on my 330 GTC was that it was "disappointing" and far from a concours car, but with only a few mechanical needs. I went to see the car (in Canada) and it was a decent driver, no trailer queen, but a solid car. I got a good price after the PPI whined about the car and I've grown to love it. I'll bet everyone on this list has a story of buyer's remorse, and if not, I've got several others. Go figure. s
steve
meltzer, "“With a Ferrari, whatever it is, it’s a $1000. If that’s what it is.”"
'66 330 GTC, '72 Daytona-red, did they make any other colors?

User avatar
gsjohnson
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 11:27 am
Location: Woodland Hills, CA

Re: Help! Should the seller fix these things?

Post by gsjohnson » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:30 am

Steve Meltzer wrote:I just don't think there's an easy way with any of these old cars. Case in point: A year ago I paid "an expert" (who ran a competing shop and is an NCRS judge) to look over a '66 BB A/C Corvette coupe. He missed the fact that the car's AC didn't work (selling dealer said it worked great), that it had been much more badly hit in the front than I was told and a myriad of other things all of which are still emptying my wallet. (good thing it's a 'Vette, at least parts are widely available and generally cheap compared to a Ferrari.)

Take home message: You ain't alone, so stop the self-flagellation. Tho' I'd still get a PPI, I think you gotta go see the car yourself, which neither of us did. As a counterpoint, however, the PPI on my 330 GTC was that it was "disappointing" and far from a concours car, but with only a few mechanical needs. I went to see the car (in Canada) and it was a decent driver, no trailer queen, but a solid car. I got a good price after the PPI whined about the car and I've grown to love it. I'll bet everyone on this list has a story of buyer's remorse, and if not, I've got several others. Go figure. s
Good analogy and very true.
8 years ago, I wanted a 67 Mustang fastback to build and be a part of the fledging Eleanor craze. I found the car and it was represented by the seller as a clean rust free half finished project. I reviewed at least 50 photos of the car and we made a deal. I hooked up my car trailer to my van and left from my home headed to Oklahoma. It was in the middle of November, a long drive with very poor weather. We hit a snow storm and fog like I had never seen before. We reached our destination in the middle of the night and couldn't find a hotel. So we decided to sleep in my van til morning. We got so cold (remember we're So Cal boys), we ended up starting the engine to the van and turning the heater on. We let the van run all night! Well I'm sure you know the rest...It was a Fred Flintstone car. Every panel had tinfoil that had been glassed over, but I was glad that I had at least inspected the car prior to laying down my green backs.
Although, I have made some bad buys after supposed inspections by supposed experts as well.
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997

xs10shl
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Help! Should the seller fix these things?

Post by xs10shl » Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:37 pm

As they say, "Buyer Beware".

It's entirely possible that you can still unwind the deal, as you apparently didn't take delivery of the vehicle at the dealership. I only know California law, which is quite specific. A "sale" only takes place if the buyer shows up on the lot, takes possession of the car, and drives it OFF the lot HIMSELF. In all other circumstances, there is a way to unwind the transaction. Most people don't know this, so that's why it rarely happens.

A couple of other low hanging bits of knowledge I've accumulated from my experiences - be wary when buying a car from a Florida dealer (a stereotype, yes, but stereotypes frequently contain a grain of truth, as I have discovered), and expect to sink $10,000 into any car you purchase, no matter how nice it appears to be.

This advice is all free, by the way. And worth every penny! ;^)

Post Reply