Tapping noise from my 330 America

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tyang
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Tapping noise from my 330 America

Post by tyang »

Well my worst fears were realized today, something is wrong with an exhaust valve seat in my 330! Francois and I found excessive valve lash on #8 exhaust valve tonight, and after doing a leak down test on that cylinder, we found no pressure being held by that cylinder! Air could be heard leaking out the exhaust pipes.

The head will have to come off, and I can see machine work in my future.

When I rebuilt this motor years ago we inspected the valve seats and felt that they looked O.K. I didn't want to spend more money than I had to, and it was a calculated risk. Did it come back and bite me in the ass? Maybe, but then again, other cars have gone many years without dropped valve seats. It's a crap shoot no matter how you look at it.

I guess to look at the bright side of things, I did not loose the whole valve seat, and munch the head or piston. I'll just have to come up with the money for a head gasket and machine work. I'll just work late several nights in the coming weeks to pull the head and find out what happened.

...and she was running so great before this happened!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
steve lapp
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Post by steve lapp »

Tom:

Sorry to hear that the click is more than a simple adjustment! The bright side is that winter is almost here, so you don't lose much driving time.

How would (could) you have even checked for this kind of possible problem?

cheers
steve
Steve Lapp
Ontario Canada
2013 Nissan Leaf, 2002 Prius, 56 Healey 100-4, 74 BMW 2002, 330 GT 2+2 s/n 6241, 54 Dodge M152 (listed by decreasing fuel economy)
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JAV
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Post by JAV »

Tom,

I know your probably really down at the moment so let me put it back in perspective as someone usually does for me when I'm down.

It's a problem - yes - but it could have been much much worse taking the piston, cylinder and head. Had it gone that badly, it still wouldn't be what many of us really fear the most.. as we tend to take what really matters for granted when lifes smaller challenges confront us.

You have your health and freinds to encourage you on just another project... you should be used to those by now. Don't sweat it- it'll get done and you'll be better for it.
John Viveiros
1964 250 GTL
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
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Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters »

Hi Tom,

That sucks (literally). Sorry to hear about that, but just think
how misery loves company. My engine on the GTE was rebuilt
and then had to torn down completly again a year later. Twice
apart to get it right! The costs, if known, would be grounds for
divorce. As long as you have your health and family, the world
should be an ok place to be, no matter what.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 33o GT s/n 8705
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josh
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Re: Tapping noise from my 330 America

Post by josh »

tyang wrote:Well my worst fears were realized today, something is wrong with an exhaust valve seat in my 330! Francois and I found excessive valve lash on #8 exhaust valve tonight, and after doing a leak down test on that cylinder, we found no pressure being held by that cylinder! Air could be heard leaking out the exhaust pipes.
Sorry to hear that, Tom. Glad it didn't turn uglier, at least.

--Josh
--

1966 Fiat 1500 Cabriolet
1967 Fiat Dino Spider
http://www.hitchhiker.org/fiat/
8339
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Post by 8339 »

Tom, I'm really sorry to hear about the valve seat. However, as you and I have seen, it could have been a lot worse. Tom do you have a borescope to see how bad or not so bad the damage is?
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tyang
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Post by tyang »

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the support! This car and I have seen our ups and downs, so I'm no stranger to near catastrophes. I'll do what I always do, go home, look at how good everything else is, realize it's just a car and can be fixed, and get back into it. Thank goodness I have Francois for guidance, and I have enough experience now to do all the work.

What could have been done to avoid this? Really nothing. When we were rebuilding this engine, we looked at the seats and how much material was there. If anything looked amiss, Francois would have suggested new seats. I didn't drive my car especially hard or use any exotic fuels, so it could just be bad luck. When the head comes off, I may learn more.

The big question is whether to change all the seats, or replace what broke!

I could borrow a boroscope, but it's going to tell me the same thing I already know. I've got bad leakage on my exhaust valve, even after making sure the valve was moving with the spring. I've also been told it's hard to see up by the valve seat when coming down the spark plug hole with a scope.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
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gsjohnson
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Post by gsjohnson »

Sorry about your misfortune Tom. Your correct in saying, at the end of the day, it is only a car. Removing the head on these puppies is a lot of work so you may want to replace all of the seats. Of course, as we have seen, there isn't any guarantee that you wouldn't have get back into it for another reason. The best laid plans...All you can do is play the odds of reducing failures with these beasts.
GS
1965 330 GT 2+2 Interim
S/N 6997
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Dr. Ian Levy
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Tapping noise from my 330 America

Post by Dr. Ian Levy »

Hello Tom
My sympathy from the UK but as the guys have alrready said-it could have been much worse.
I have been there also as most of us have but it will get fixed & you have the skills to fix it,plus Francis for advice.
I think you are better placed than most.
If money were no object would you replace all the seats if so then you have to decide whethr it is worth risking being in this position again, maybe sooner than you would wish.
FWIW: I replaced all & everything whenever there was a decision to be made, so good luck whatever you decide.
Ian L
Manhcester UK
1972 365 GTC4 s/n 15989
http://www.ferrari365gtc4.co.uk/
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sam231
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Post by sam231 »

Tom, I'm sorry too, I heard it and thought it was a loose tappet or lock nut too. Having just had my top end rebuilt and having a similar problem, amongst others, I know the feeling...OUCH$$!! That said, I am a big fan of "while you are at it..." because the cars are so old and prone to gremlins and think you ought to make sure there are no other problems lurking by replacing all the seats. A few hours extra with Francois will yield a lot more driving pleasure down the road....and we will be able to share it every step of the way! Seriously, go with your gut.

Sam
'72 365 GTC/4 # 14953; ex-owner 330 GT 2+2 # 8025 :>(
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tyang
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Post by tyang »

shaughnessy wrote:So Tom, if the first engine rebuild was done commercially, and the client said leave the valve seats in place (verbally) which you, the vendor, then chose not to override, Who is responsible for the failure?

How may people who just spent 20,000+ dollars would be blaming the engine builder and looking for free or reduced parts and labor, the second go around. With nothing is in writing, an attorney has a fairly good case. It is he said/she said and usually the judges and jury side with the victim, (owner) and not the professional.


Who is responsible for expenses (parts and labor) on failed components, choice of wrong components, customer cost savings directives or other issue that could cause catatrophic failure on 20,30,40+ year old cars that no original parts are available for and the existing ones are WORN out?
I agree with you completely. We recently had an owner that dropped a valve wanting to only repair the damage. Francois agreed to do the work, but warned that this could happen again to another valve.

I'm fully responsible for what happened even though it was the luck of th draw, but when dealing with customers, it can be a different story!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
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JAV
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Post by JAV »

Tom,

I think Tom Yang is dealing with this quite honorably. And, don't think that type of issue is reserved to vintage cars... it happens every day in many businesses.

I have a bunch of customers that always play us against our competition on new job bids. Brand new peices of equipment to perform specific tasks that in order to contain costs, get stirpped of features that are of no intitial value to them - Things like spare parts kits, feild service ports, diagnositc tools- things that will permit efficeint feild repairs later on. When it comes time to order, "later on" doesn't matter- the only thing that matters is the bottom line now, and we get or lose the job based on that. We've even resorted to printing waivers and exclusiuon on quotes so everyone is clear about what their getting and giving up based on that price.

A year later, when mostly due to facilites conditions (which generally suck outside of the US and Europe), a component fails and production is down long term. Nobody seems to remember, or care, that the current crises would not have been a crisis, had they not paired back the initial investment to protect themselves agianst such diffculties.

Quite often- If we don't want to lose a customer- we generally have to eat some, if not all of the repairs (even outside of warranty periods)! Happens all the time and I constantly battle our slaes group when they're "sharpening our pencil".

It sucks- but it is what it is in the free market.
John Viveiros
1964 250 GTL
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Dr. Ian Levy
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Tapping noise from my 330 America

Post by Dr. Ian Levy »

Hello Tom
I think the forum may have moved away from your question.
When rebuilding my car I followed what I thought was good advice at the time from Jeff Littrell. If you check out the MIdas Swell at http://jefflit.net/cars/365gtc4/resto.asp you will see what I am referring to.
We can all be wise after the event which is completly unhelpful in life as well as with our cars but 20/20 hindsight is such a useless & irritating trait.
Shit happens, Tom but I would do everything I could to avoid it happening again in the same place.
Regards
Ian L
Manchester
1972 365 GTC4 s/n 15989
http://www.ferrari365gtc4.co.uk/
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mikewegener
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Post by mikewegener »

Hello Tom
Sorry to hear about your troubles. We had a similar problem with an early Aston Martin V8. Loose seat but no major damage. When apart the head looked fine and it was essentially an inexpensive fix. About 500 miles later another seat came loose and this time it kept the valve from closing with extreme carnage as the result. We checked with metallurgists a lot smarter than us and the consensus was that there are only so many heat and cool cycles these two dissimilar metals can go through with out loosening the shrink fit of the seat.
We installed a Chevy engine and transmission and got the car on the road while we fixed the engine right. The cure for the heads was packing them in dry ice to make the castings remember their their original molecular structure and seats a few thousands larger also helped.
That motor is still running in that car and the Chevy combo wound up in a Ford F150. Go figure...
Incidentally the Aston Martin DOHC V8 engine was a beautiful piece. Nice slender castings and it was obvious that it was meant more for the lola racecar than for the production Aston. Everything that bolted to that wonderful motor was crude and the air conditioning bracket was especially hideous. Definitively different people that designed the engine and the morlocks that designed all bracketry.
As usual I got off track. What I am saying is better do all the seats before something catastrophic happens.
Mike
afwrench
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Post by afwrench »

Hi Tom, big time downer! Remember my offer ,at the least Im good at lifting heavy things! Mike
72,365gtc4,14681,2007 599 GTB
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