365 GT 2+2 brakes
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Bernard Fahimian
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:15 am
365 GT 2+2 brakes
Hi all, Glad to see some of you in Monterey; what a great weekend. Is there any way to improve the braking on my 365 GT 2+2? Has any body done any modifications to their vintage Ferrari to make it safer and better? My car is all factory spec but those brakes! the car is so heavy and the brakes so small it just keeps going and going before it stops! Bernard
Hi, Bernard ... I'm going to check with Jens, but he has commented about my brakes being very BIG. Our next project is to overhaul the brake system ... he did tell me, that the heavy foot I have to put into braking, is most likely the result of the master cylinder being old, and in need of attention.
Greetings... I would rebuild everything to standard using stainless steel sleeves and bridge pipes (if your calipers use them). Then use Porterfield R4S pads. The pads are one of the best upgrades you can do to your car. If your car isn't listed, don't worry. Call Andy, tell him what you've got, and he'll handle it. Besides stopping your car like you won't believe, the pads (carbon kevlar) are friendly to your rotors. Tim
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Bernard Fahimian
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:15 am
Thanks for everybody`s input. I do have wire wheels on my car but don`t know if it affects the car`s braking. Will definitely try Porterfield pads and stainless steel lines. Gerald Roush writes in another site that Ferrari changed from Girling to smaller ATE brakes and that reduced the performance to a degree. I always keep 10-15 car distances in front of me at freeway speeds. Driving a vintage Ferrari at modern traffic and big cities requires a lot of concentration.Best....Bernard
I would echo the comment about checking your brakes thoroughly. My 330 (just post careful PPI) had so-so brakes. They progressively got more so-so until the pedal hit the stop. No leaks or loss of fluid to indicate anything obvious was wrong.
Now post master cylinder re-sleeve at white post in VA ( and rebuild of the two boosters) they are at least reliable (but certainly not modern sports car class). Can you brake hard enough to get to the brink of lock-up?
Now post master cylinder re-sleeve at white post in VA ( and rebuild of the two boosters) they are at least reliable (but certainly not modern sports car class). Can you brake hard enough to get to the brink of lock-up?
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Bernard Fahimian
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:15 am
How old are your brake lines?
I recently replaced all my flexible brake lines, - being 30 years old, they had deteriorated on the inside such that they restricted flow. This basically dampened braking and made the brakes seem in effective. The final event that caused me to fork over the $50+ for 8 brake lines was when my right front wheel caliper failed to retract and caused heavy pulling to the right and a hot rotor. On the roadside, I pull off the wheel, release the pressure and carefully drove home.
New brake lines all around made a really significant difference.
Just a story that might be of some value,
Aaron
P.S. do not through away the old brake lines – the fittings on the ends can be re-used if and when we find a source for replacement Ate brake hose.
I recently replaced all my flexible brake lines, - being 30 years old, they had deteriorated on the inside such that they restricted flow. This basically dampened braking and made the brakes seem in effective. The final event that caused me to fork over the $50+ for 8 brake lines was when my right front wheel caliper failed to retract and caused heavy pulling to the right and a hot rotor. On the roadside, I pull off the wheel, release the pressure and carefully drove home.
New brake lines all around made a really significant difference.
Just a story that might be of some value,
Aaron
P.S. do not through away the old brake lines – the fittings on the ends can be re-used if and when we find a source for replacement Ate brake hose.
400i brakes
I have posted previously on this very subject
but no real solutions were proffered
I am planning on 'Bleeding' the Brakes tomrrow
(with a Mity-Vac, etc)
but I am not expecting any miracles-
mostly to get the service up to date
(moisture is the ENEMY)
My own opinion is that the 'weak' brakes
are caused (at least in part)
by low / inadequate vacuum, providing inadequate boosting
thus resulting in excessive pedal effort required
this is borne out by the fact that the Brake Light comes on
after a session in traffic or other low speed maneuvers.
disconnecting the (low) vacuum pressure switch on the Booster
will cause the Light to cease to come on
therefore inadequate vacuum does seem to be an issue
I plan to check the output of the mechanical Vacuum 'booster' Pump.
(I had asked about this on here as well,
but no hard data was forthcoming)
during my recent Transmission extravaganza
I also purchased an (Automatic) Transmission Manual
and the manual also happened to include the figure I was looking for:
the Pump is supposed to pull 10 PSI (if memory serves)
(I think they mean -10 PSI)
so now I can check to see if the Pump will pull this vacuum
and see if the System can hold this pressure
during driving and braking, etc.
The first place to look is at the Hoses - loose or leaky?
BTW, Summit has this Hose I just spotted
looks pretty cool - has a woven black 'poly' cover
with synthetic rubber lining
looks like a close match to 'original' Ferrari Hoses
appearance wise, I mean
and may be fairly cost effective alternative -
i will evaluate samples and update
i may end up adding a Vacuum Reserve Tank
(also available from Summit)
I read some where (Bluemel V12 Book maybe)
that it is common for older Ferraris
with Power Brakes to have such a reserve tank
'discreetly tucked into one of the wings'
to help out the weak stock Brakes
by providing a steady source of good vacuum
if this does not work
Summit also offers a 12V Vaccum Pump
for exactly such applications
to supplement Vaccum for Power Brakes
where the original equipment is deficient
(or more likely) has been compromised
by a radical Cam and or Intake, etc. -
somewhat 'pricey' to try as an experiment, however.
I am also considering adding a second vacuum port
to the other Intake Plenum
as right now, only one Cylinder Bank is used to supply vacuum
to the Power Brake system -
another factor contributing to low vacuum
for a carbureted car
I believe that only one carb is used to pull vacuum -
it should be relatively easy to add ports
to the other carbs and increase vacuum that way
I think the high pedal effort
may also be partly due
to the relative inactivty of the car
the Pistons may be stiff in the Calipers
and not sliding smoothly,
binding, sticky
thus requiring excessive effort
the Calipers on my car
appear somewhat rusty and dirty
and look like they were not rebuilt or replaced
when the Pads were changed
(as they appear to have been changed)
probably just pushed back
as the Pads are still pretty thick,
the Calipers do not leak,
and the Hoses are flexible and not cracked
I am not going to go THAT route
any time soon...
but no real solutions were proffered
I am planning on 'Bleeding' the Brakes tomrrow
(with a Mity-Vac, etc)
but I am not expecting any miracles-
mostly to get the service up to date
(moisture is the ENEMY)
My own opinion is that the 'weak' brakes
are caused (at least in part)
by low / inadequate vacuum, providing inadequate boosting
thus resulting in excessive pedal effort required
this is borne out by the fact that the Brake Light comes on
after a session in traffic or other low speed maneuvers.
disconnecting the (low) vacuum pressure switch on the Booster
will cause the Light to cease to come on
therefore inadequate vacuum does seem to be an issue
I plan to check the output of the mechanical Vacuum 'booster' Pump.
(I had asked about this on here as well,
but no hard data was forthcoming)
during my recent Transmission extravaganza
I also purchased an (Automatic) Transmission Manual
and the manual also happened to include the figure I was looking for:
the Pump is supposed to pull 10 PSI (if memory serves)
(I think they mean -10 PSI)
so now I can check to see if the Pump will pull this vacuum
and see if the System can hold this pressure
during driving and braking, etc.
The first place to look is at the Hoses - loose or leaky?
BTW, Summit has this Hose I just spotted
looks pretty cool - has a woven black 'poly' cover
with synthetic rubber lining
looks like a close match to 'original' Ferrari Hoses
appearance wise, I mean
and may be fairly cost effective alternative -
i will evaluate samples and update
i may end up adding a Vacuum Reserve Tank
(also available from Summit)
I read some where (Bluemel V12 Book maybe)
that it is common for older Ferraris
with Power Brakes to have such a reserve tank
'discreetly tucked into one of the wings'
to help out the weak stock Brakes
by providing a steady source of good vacuum
if this does not work
Summit also offers a 12V Vaccum Pump
for exactly such applications
to supplement Vaccum for Power Brakes
where the original equipment is deficient
(or more likely) has been compromised
by a radical Cam and or Intake, etc. -
somewhat 'pricey' to try as an experiment, however.
I am also considering adding a second vacuum port
to the other Intake Plenum
as right now, only one Cylinder Bank is used to supply vacuum
to the Power Brake system -
another factor contributing to low vacuum
for a carbureted car
I believe that only one carb is used to pull vacuum -
it should be relatively easy to add ports
to the other carbs and increase vacuum that way
I think the high pedal effort
may also be partly due
to the relative inactivty of the car
the Pistons may be stiff in the Calipers
and not sliding smoothly,
binding, sticky
thus requiring excessive effort
the Calipers on my car
appear somewhat rusty and dirty
and look like they were not rebuilt or replaced
when the Pads were changed
(as they appear to have been changed)
probably just pushed back
as the Pads are still pretty thick,
the Calipers do not leak,
and the Hoses are flexible and not cracked
I am not going to go THAT route
any time soon...
bled
bled brakes today
discovered that one circut is restricted
I think I have been afflicted
with the dreaded
COLLAPSED HOSE Syndrome!
this could be a contributing factor
in the excessive pedal effort scenario
but I don't think so
one bad hose out of 8 aint too bad
(400i has 2 brake circuits, upper and lower
as opposed to front and rear)
discovered that one circut is restricted
I think I have been afflicted
with the dreaded
COLLAPSED HOSE Syndrome!
this could be a contributing factor
in the excessive pedal effort scenario
but I don't think so
one bad hose out of 8 aint too bad
(400i has 2 brake circuits, upper and lower
as opposed to front and rear)
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Michael Bayer
- Posts: 699
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 7:22 am
