Flooded Torque Tube

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TOMKIZER
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Flooded Torque Tube

Post by TOMKIZER »

This is not a spin-off from the Blinker Fluid thread, although it may sound like it.

Upon my return from Cavallino Classic XIX, about 2,500 miles, not including trailer miles, I found that the rear half of my Queen's underbody was liberally coated with red oil. By poking my finger in the two torque-tube splined coupling access holes, front and rear, I found that there was a lot of trans/diff fluid in the torque tube. Since I use AMSOIL Severe Gear 75W=140 in both the transmission and the differential, I don't know which is the culprit yet, although because of the quantity, I suspect the transmision.

Pulling the torque tube to get access to the pinion shaft seal and the trans output shaft seal is not fun. So I have a question before I start tearing things apart. Can those two seals (trans output shaft seal and diff pinion shaft seal) be changed without special tools? Can they be removed and replaced without removing the trans output shaft and diff input shaft?

I have a four-post lift with easy access to the underbody, so access is not my problem.

Can someone advise me on changing these two seals?

Thanks,

Tom Kizer
Michael Bayer
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by Michael Bayer »

Tom I can not answer the seals replacement issue, but BianP and I recently changed his Queen's clutch and have fresh experience on the pull apart and reassemble process if you want a talk through on that, M
Michael J. Bayer
330GT s/n 9727
365GTC4 s/n 14943
Dino Spider s/n 1193
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by TOMKIZER »

Thanks, Michael,

It's been almost 20 years since I had the trans and diff out. If I remember right, after pulling the tailpipes, the torque tube comes out pretty easily by backing up the diff towards the rear of the car. I'll pull the trans area cross-member to get better access to the trans seal, if necessary. My biggest concern is doing all that only to find that I have to put it all back together to take it to a shop to have the trans and diff pulled completely out. I can't do that by myself with my equipment. Besides, I don't know of a shop anywhere near that I trust to work on a 40 year-old Ferrari.

I've searched the internet for seal replacement videos and how-to write-ups. It looks pretty simple to change them both if they are typical and once the torque tube is completely out. The only thing I've never done is replace the seals themselves.

Wish me luck and let me know (anybody) if there's something i've missed. I think I'll give the rear suspension and underbody a once-over while I'm at it. I have to clean all the oil off anyway.

I'll take notes and photos to document the process for posterity.

Tom Kizer
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
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sam231
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by sam231 »

Hi Tom,

Ain't old cars fun! BTW, go Canada!

The first thing I would do is check the level of fluid in both transmission and differential. That should narrow your quest. If it is the transmission you do not need any special tools. Just make sure you get the correct torque numbers when you put everything back together. The diff is a different. I talked to my main man John T. and he said the flange has nuts that need a special tool, and further that the flange is pre-loaded to set up ring and pinion gears.
Again, torque numbers are important. I would imagine you could change the seals on either without removing them from the car.

Sam
'72 365 GTC/4 # 14953; ex-owner 330 GT 2+2 # 8025 :>(
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by TOMKIZER »

sam231 wrote:Hi Tom,

Ain't old cars fun! BTW, go Canada!

The first thing I would do is check the level of fluid in both transmission and differential. That should narrow your quest. If it is the transmission you do not need any special tools. Just make sure you get the correct torque numbers when you put everything back together. The diff is a different. I talked to my main man John T. and he said the flange has nuts that need a special tool, and further that the flange is pre-loaded to set up ring and pinion gears.
Again, torque numbers are important. I would imagine you could change the seals on either without removing them from the car.

Sam
Hi Sam,

Thanks for the "go Canada!" but I'm American. In reality, since I rooted for both teams, I couldn't lose. I won twice.

After 25 years, I'm still finding things in my Queen's owner's manual that I've never noticed before. Here's a blow-up of the diff end of the torque tube installation shown on page 65 with the torque tube removed using Paint. If it's drawn to scale in the book, it looks like I can remove and replace the diff seal without disturbing the bearing spacer retention/preload nut.

The other end of that same cross-section that I cropped out shows the seal on the trans output shaft. You are right, it seems very accessible.

I'll post my success or failure.

Thanks.

Tom Kizer
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Diff Seal.JPG
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So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
Michael Bayer
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by Michael Bayer »

Tom PM Richard Garre he recently had his hands in two Queen's transmissions, he should be able to tell you if the trans seal can be replaced in situ M
Michael J. Bayer
330GT s/n 9727
365GTC4 s/n 14943
Dino Spider s/n 1193
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by 8339 »

Tom, I did rebuild two QM tranny's recently, here's a couple of things to keep in mind. Mark the output shhaft and the coupler to make sure they line up the same way you pull them off on both ends, the trans and the diff. Balancing and phase of the shaft can be a real problem if they go back in a different position. The rear seal to the best of my knowledge is a 50 x 80 x 10 mm lip seal. The part number from Partssource is 95850400, it is possible to match them up from a good bearing supplier. There's a large nut on the end of the shaft which I don't believe needs to be removed in order to remove and replace the seal. I always pack assembly lube in the back side of the seal and mating surface, this accomplishes two things, lubrication on the mating surfaces and as the seal is being pushed into place the lube helps to prevent the spring from popping off the inner collar. I prefer Lubriplate no. 105 assembly grease, do not use wheel bearing grease or any parafin based grease as it will react well with the trans fluids. Let me know if you run into problems.

Richard Garre
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TOMKIZER
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by TOMKIZER »

You guys are all so helpful. Thanks much.

Richard, I really appreciate the tips on shaft indexing and the assembly grease. I can just see myself popping the spring off the seal and never knowing it until I found another puddle under the car, then fixing it right only to find a severe vibration after I thought everything was perfect. Doing something three times is not fun.

Another probably silly question, but I can't find the answer by doing research on the web or in my engineering reference books. When I see a seal part number in my Ferrari parts book that looks like "Gallital 6095" (the 365 GT 2+2 differential pinion seal), I suspect that means 60mm ID x 95mm OD x (?mm) thickness where the thickness not provided is not critical because it's the item on the end of the assembly with lots of clearance. Richard, I finally concluded this because you said the transmission output shaft seal is 50 x 80 x 10 and my parts book calls for a MIM 5080. Am I reasonably correct in my understanding of how to read seal part numbers?

Thanks for all the help.

Tom Kizer
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by 8339 »

Tom, you're right on the money for part number versus the actual size. The part numbers do not always correspond so be careful. The thickness of the seal can make a difference, my suggestion is to measure them once you have them out. If you have a problem finding them contact me and I'll find them for you.

Richard Garre
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by mdempsey »

'Thanks for the "go Canada!" but I'm American. In reality, since I rooted for both teams, I couldn't lose. I won twice.'

That is enough to put you back on the terrorist watch list!!!
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sam231
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Re: Flooded Torque Tube

Post by sam231 »

mdempsey wrote:'Thanks for the "go Canada!" but I'm American. In reality, since I rooted for both teams, I couldn't lose. I won twice.'

That is enough to put you back on the terrorist watch list!!!
:lol:
'72 365 GTC/4 # 14953; ex-owner 330 GT 2+2 # 8025 :>(
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