Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
Hi Tom, I have been thinking about the various options you are considering and I wanted to weigh in on the choices.
The manual brake system option is something I really strongly suggest avoiding. You will not get enough pressure on that pedal in an emergency situation. Can’t say that directly with experience, but I did drive my GTE for a short run with the booster disconnected whilst hunting a vacuum leak and stopping distances are really compromised. There was a reason (I believe anyway) that Ferrari went the path of a “third party” brake system – it was cheap, reliable and they were not re-inventing the wheel. The Bonaldi unit is older technology, but perfectly rebuild able, and I think that’s the road you ought to be on. I agree that “your” rebuild was “only” 9 years ago and that you have had “only” a couple years use (you whiner) – but we all know that these cars do not fair well without driving, I think the booster may have problems because it was not used – not the other way around.
I had a working booster/equalizer on my car, and it did not give any difficulty. My choice would be to rebuild that also. I have never heard anyone discuss the booster/equalizer’s empirical contribution to stopping distance, only that the brakes “still work” when you bypass it.
I would also replace the seals in all the wheel cylinders as part of the process – if they were all locking up, who knows what condition they are now in.
I did nothing to the brakes when I bought my GTE, so within three months of getting my car on the road (back in ’95 – I feel my bones a creakin...) I had brake fluid leaks in all but one wheel cylinder – a booster that was leaking air and no brake lights. I resleeved the whole deal, put a new switch on the end of the master and had a place in LA rebuild the booster. All that lasted till 2001, and probably would have lasted longer if I had not bent the drivers door back on it’s hinges and stopped using the car – but that’s another story.
I did change the DOT 3 fluid every 2 years, and I could lock (and unlock again) all four wheels without any trouble on dry LA roads.
The upgrade to a dual circuit is a good idea, my 67 Lincoln has that and it is much better than the earlier cars, and the 67 stops really well. I’m not sure how you would do it on a GTE with the floor mounted pedals and be able to boost both circuits. Then again, they did it in all 911’s till the late nineties so it must be possible.
Lastly, there have been a lot of GTE’s that stop o.k. (let’s face it – they all go better than they stop) before your problem and I am pretty sure there will be a bunch that still stop o.k. in the future – so my vote is to just rebuild/renew and make sure everything you have is working as well as it should. Oh - and make sure you can jump on that cable operated handbrake pretty hard if you have to...
Regards, Andrew.
The manual brake system option is something I really strongly suggest avoiding. You will not get enough pressure on that pedal in an emergency situation. Can’t say that directly with experience, but I did drive my GTE for a short run with the booster disconnected whilst hunting a vacuum leak and stopping distances are really compromised. There was a reason (I believe anyway) that Ferrari went the path of a “third party” brake system – it was cheap, reliable and they were not re-inventing the wheel. The Bonaldi unit is older technology, but perfectly rebuild able, and I think that’s the road you ought to be on. I agree that “your” rebuild was “only” 9 years ago and that you have had “only” a couple years use (you whiner) – but we all know that these cars do not fair well without driving, I think the booster may have problems because it was not used – not the other way around.
I had a working booster/equalizer on my car, and it did not give any difficulty. My choice would be to rebuild that also. I have never heard anyone discuss the booster/equalizer’s empirical contribution to stopping distance, only that the brakes “still work” when you bypass it.
I would also replace the seals in all the wheel cylinders as part of the process – if they were all locking up, who knows what condition they are now in.
I did nothing to the brakes when I bought my GTE, so within three months of getting my car on the road (back in ’95 – I feel my bones a creakin...) I had brake fluid leaks in all but one wheel cylinder – a booster that was leaking air and no brake lights. I resleeved the whole deal, put a new switch on the end of the master and had a place in LA rebuild the booster. All that lasted till 2001, and probably would have lasted longer if I had not bent the drivers door back on it’s hinges and stopped using the car – but that’s another story.
I did change the DOT 3 fluid every 2 years, and I could lock (and unlock again) all four wheels without any trouble on dry LA roads.
The upgrade to a dual circuit is a good idea, my 67 Lincoln has that and it is much better than the earlier cars, and the 67 stops really well. I’m not sure how you would do it on a GTE with the floor mounted pedals and be able to boost both circuits. Then again, they did it in all 911’s till the late nineties so it must be possible.
Lastly, there have been a lot of GTE’s that stop o.k. (let’s face it – they all go better than they stop) before your problem and I am pretty sure there will be a bunch that still stop o.k. in the future – so my vote is to just rebuild/renew and make sure everything you have is working as well as it should. Oh - and make sure you can jump on that cable operated handbrake pretty hard if you have to...
Regards, Andrew.
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
I personally think that by-passing the equalizer is not a very good idea. Imagine braking on wet and rear wheels locking first.
I also think the idea of unassisted disc brakes is all nonsense. Properly rebuilt ATE/Bonaldi booster will work for decades. They were used everywhere and not generally concidered a problem.
Best wishes, Kare
I also think the idea of unassisted disc brakes is all nonsense. Properly rebuilt ATE/Bonaldi booster will work for decades. They were used everywhere and not generally concidered a problem.
Best wishes, Kare
250 GT 2+2 3197/GT
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
The biggist underestamation at the brake issue is hydroscopic( pulling water in system).
And the biggest mistake is not driving.
I can show brakereservoir alu holders perforated on the bottom. build before 1958
I change to diskbrake because the drumms only work fine when warm.
I dont feel safe with dubious brakes.
Yes the wintersalt is gone it runs again daily.
To drive this car without Bonaldi no problem but is about 400-450kg less in total weight toward a GTE
the Brake system of GTE is soooo simple would nothing change, only overhaul those 7 solidcomponents and lines.
its only a hobby here
Cornelis.
And the biggest mistake is not driving.
I can show brakereservoir alu holders perforated on the bottom. build before 1958
I change to diskbrake because the drumms only work fine when warm.
I dont feel safe with dubious brakes.
Yes the wintersalt is gone it runs again daily.
To drive this car without Bonaldi no problem but is about 400-450kg less in total weight toward a GTE
the Brake system of GTE is soooo simple would nothing change, only overhaul those 7 solidcomponents and lines.
its only a hobby here
Cornelis.
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
I think the first thing is to figure out exactly what failed. Then I'll make my decisions.
If the front to rear brake proportion is balanced correctly with an adjustable proportioning valve, the booster/equalizer will not be needed.
If I use a smaller bore M/C, I may be able to increase pressure to the calipers without the booster. I just need to see if I'll have enough volume to actuate the calipers. Unfortunately, I've only found 1 inch M/Cs. the smaller bore M/C are single pistons.
Tom
If the front to rear brake proportion is balanced correctly with an adjustable proportioning valve, the booster/equalizer will not be needed.
If I use a smaller bore M/C, I may be able to increase pressure to the calipers without the booster. I just need to see if I'll have enough volume to actuate the calipers. Unfortunately, I've only found 1 inch M/Cs. the smaller bore M/C are single pistons.
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
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- Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
Hi Tom:
My experience is that brakes need to be rebuilt every ten years in Ontraio, due to the hygroscopic nature of the brake fluid. Unless you get that fluid hot enough to drive moisture out (racing conditions?), corrosion sets in on all ferrous and aluminium parts. Over the last 27 years, I have converted three collector cars to silicone fluid and have not had any problems, corrosion is gone as the silicone is not hygroscopic. I know some people say the silicone fluid is not as incompressible as the ester fluids, but I notice no difference on my Healey, BMW 2002 or M152 which at 8000# has unboosted brakes!. So far, with the 330, I have purged the system every two years, but through laziness have not purged the system yet, anyone converted to silicon with the 330 2+2 's?? My approach has not been to drain the old fluid and refill with silicone, but rather to drain and then take the system completely apart and clean and wipe with silicone fluid, otherwise the old fluid will still be between the seal faces and the metal parts - the exact place you do not want it, as that is where the moisture gets in. I have not experienced rubber incompatability on any of these conversions.
Just about 5 weeks away from salt free roads here!
Tom, can you PM me your address, I have something to send you.
Cheere
My experience is that brakes need to be rebuilt every ten years in Ontraio, due to the hygroscopic nature of the brake fluid. Unless you get that fluid hot enough to drive moisture out (racing conditions?), corrosion sets in on all ferrous and aluminium parts. Over the last 27 years, I have converted three collector cars to silicone fluid and have not had any problems, corrosion is gone as the silicone is not hygroscopic. I know some people say the silicone fluid is not as incompressible as the ester fluids, but I notice no difference on my Healey, BMW 2002 or M152 which at 8000# has unboosted brakes!. So far, with the 330, I have purged the system every two years, but through laziness have not purged the system yet, anyone converted to silicon with the 330 2+2 's?? My approach has not been to drain the old fluid and refill with silicone, but rather to drain and then take the system completely apart and clean and wipe with silicone fluid, otherwise the old fluid will still be between the seal faces and the metal parts - the exact place you do not want it, as that is where the moisture gets in. I have not experienced rubber incompatability on any of these conversions.
Just about 5 weeks away from salt free roads here!
Tom, can you PM me your address, I have something to send you.
Cheere
Steve Lapp
Ontario Canada
2013 Nissan Leaf, 2002 Prius, 56 Healey 100-4, 74 BMW 2002, 330 GT 2+2 s/n 6241, 54 Dodge M152 (listed by decreasing fuel economy)
Ontario Canada
2013 Nissan Leaf, 2002 Prius, 56 Healey 100-4, 74 BMW 2002, 330 GT 2+2 s/n 6241, 54 Dodge M152 (listed by decreasing fuel economy)
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
Here's my two cents on silicone brake fluid. Yes it does not absorb moisture like ester based fluids, it is not as caustic on vehicle paint as "regular"brake fluid. However, silicone brake fluid if induced into a braking system that has had "regular" brake fluid in it, tends to create a chemical reaction with the ester based fluids. Moisture will not mix with the silicone fluids but what does occur is the build up of moisture "water" at the furthest point, the caliper pistons and will stay there, if not changed corrosion will build and the pistons will seize in thier bores. Compressability of silicone brake fluid has become a problem even with race cars, now the preferred brake fluid is DOT 5.1 which is ester based but with a higher boiling point. 30 + years ago when silicone fluid came out I used it on my Alfas while living in New Hampshire, even flushing out the system with denatured alcohol did not prevent the fluid from causing the fluid to react badly and bind up the brake system, so I'm obviously skeptical.
Dealing with a lot of collector cars, I suggest changing the brake fluid a minmum of every two years regardless of mileage. I have very few if any problems with those cars.
Tom's car is a whole different kettle of fish.
Dealing with a lot of collector cars, I suggest changing the brake fluid a minmum of every two years regardless of mileage. I have very few if any problems with those cars.
Tom's car is a whole different kettle of fish.
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
Hi Tom,
Its been a while since i posted anything, so long in fact i've had to create a new log-in profile as i couldn't remember my old one.
If you are at all considering the option of a dual circuit brake system look at the Alfa Romeo system used on RHD Alfas between 1969 and 1974. The RHD cars used floor standing pedals and a dual circuit system.
Check this link, it may provide at least one option.
http://www.alfaholics.com/show_part_pho ... ument_id=2
Cheers
Adam Malone
Sydney
Its been a while since i posted anything, so long in fact i've had to create a new log-in profile as i couldn't remember my old one.
If you are at all considering the option of a dual circuit brake system look at the Alfa Romeo system used on RHD Alfas between 1969 and 1974. The RHD cars used floor standing pedals and a dual circuit system.
Check this link, it may provide at least one option.
http://www.alfaholics.com/show_part_pho ... ument_id=2
Cheers
Adam Malone
Sydney
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
The 330 America has a brake system similar to the 250s where the brake master is lower than the booster. There's a lot of places where air can get trapped that causes a spongy pedal. I steered away from the silicone because I've heard it keeps air bubbles in suspension longer than DOT 3/4. It's also a hell of a job to replace and clean everything to install DOT 5.steve lapp wrote:Hi Tom:
My experience is that brakes need to be rebuilt every ten years in Ontraio, due to the hygroscopic nature of the brake fluid. Unless you get that fluid hot enough to drive moisture out (racing conditions?), corrosion sets in on all ferrous and aluminium parts. Over the last 27 years, I have converted three collector cars to silicone fluid and have not had any problems, corrosion is gone as the silicone is not hygroscopic. I know some people say the silicone fluid is not as incompressible as the ester fluids, but I notice no difference on my Healey, BMW 2002 or M152 which at 8000# has unboosted brakes!. So far, with the 330, I have purged the system every two years, but through laziness have not purged the system yet, anyone converted to silicon with the 330 2+2 's?? My approach has not been to drain the old fluid and refill with silicone, but rather to drain and then take the system completely apart and clean and wipe with silicone fluid, otherwise the old fluid will still be between the seal faces and the metal parts - the exact place you do not want it, as that is where the moisture gets in. I have not experienced rubber incompatability on any of these conversions.
Just about 5 weeks away from salt free roads here!
Tom, can you PM me your address, I have something to send you.
Cheere
5 weeks? Ontario? Such an optimist!
In my part of world, after the snow comes the muddy season.
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
Hi Adam,Shire_GTV wrote:Hi Tom,
Its been a while since i posted anything, so long in fact i've had to create a new log-in profile as i couldn't remember my old one.
If you are at all considering the option of a dual circuit brake system look at the Alfa Romeo system used on RHD Alfas between 1969 and 1974. The RHD cars used floor standing pedals and a dual circuit system.
Check this link, it may provide at least one option.
http://www.alfaholics.com/show_part_pho ... ument_id=2
Cheers
Adam Malone
Sydney
Welcome back!
Interesting M/C. The only problem with using a dual circuit Master Cylinder is I'd have to lose the booster. 250 Ferraris and my 330 have a separate M/C and Booster, so a dual circuit M/C would have to run two boosters like they did with the Series I 330s. Talk about overly complicated!
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
Tom, here's a thought, street rods use a hidden (remote) booster that can fit in a fenderwell, underneath the car etc. Leave the other booster up front looking like it's hooked up. The dual circuit M/C for floor mounted pedals only lasted one year in the states on S1 1750 Alfas. Europe however continued with the floor mounted pedals for a few more years. Alfa Stop is a great company for those. I'll find you a source for remote booster just for S and G.
Richard Garre
Richard Garre
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
If I were you and functionality takes pecedence over originality why not just run a racing style set up with dual masters and a balance bar. Tilton makes some pretty cool stuff that is not that costly and is proven to function. They also make some much better compound brake pads for the track guys that would probably out perform the stock brakes even with the booster. There are some pretty simple formulas for determining the master required for a giveb brake piston, off the top of my head if you went with. 11/8" master for the front and a 7/8" master for ther rear with a balance bar and bias adjuster you would eliminate your headaches and get to driving. Lastly I would strongly suggest investing the $100 in a set of Stainless brake lines to prevent those questioable rubber ones failing again. It's all well and good to make the original 50 year old system work if you have to but why bother, we have come a long way in that time with brake tech. Disc brakes were a brand new concept on a road car just a year before the GTE
just my thoughts but I know if I was building Ferraris to drive and not building them for green grass and trophy collecting there are plenty of improvements to be made.
Zac
just my thoughts but I know if I was building Ferraris to drive and not building them for green grass and trophy collecting there are plenty of improvements to be made.
Zac
1970 365 gt 2+2 13137, 1997 550 Maranello, 1969 Lamborghini Miura S, 1973 365 GTB/4 Daytona
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
HERESY ! HERESY ! Burn him at the stake ! You're probably one of those guys who installs valve stem caps to avoid pulling the heads to change those $140 valves when they're lightly scuffed on the tip. Or even, heaven forbid, black painted Stebro stainless steel exhaust system with ANSA stickers on the tips to trick the overworked judges.zac wrote:just my thoughts but I know if I was building Ferraris to drive and not building them for green grass and trophy collecting there are plenty of improvements to be made.
Zac
Tom Kizer
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
hey, I resemble that remark . . .TOMKIZER wrote:Or even, heaven forbid, black painted Stebro stainless steel exhaust system with ANSA stickers on the tips to trick the overworked judges.zac wrote:just my thoughts but I know if I was building Ferraris to drive and not building them for green grass and trophy collecting there are plenty of improvements to be made.
Zac
Tom Kizer
1968 365 GT 2+2
s/n 11199
1955 s.II 500 Mondial
s/n 0556(0446)MD
1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale
s/n 11199
1955 s.II 500 Mondial
s/n 0556(0446)MD
1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
Something's wrong here.
365 GT 2+2 owners!
Painted Stebro exhaust systems!
Maine Coon cats!
Tom Kizer
365 GT 2+2 owners!
Painted Stebro exhaust systems!
Maine Coon cats!
Tom Kizer
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So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes
Back to brakes - sorry!
Tom,
I understand Zac's position perfectly, and even tend to agree now that I've done the opposite. I chose to try to restore my car to the day it was sold in 1969 in Milan, except for the Stebro system. And I painted that as you saw. I've lived and suffered with the results of my decisions to keep it as-original. My magnesium three-blade fans don't keep the car cool. My Marelli alternator doesn't keep the battery charged very well. My original A/C compressor keeps leaking refrigerant. I could make a long, long list of things that don't work very well and things that technology has left behind. Since you don't get your car judged anymore, maybe you should ask yourself, "What's going to make it more fun to drive and require less work, and rework, and rework?"
Tom Kizer
Tom,
I understand Zac's position perfectly, and even tend to agree now that I've done the opposite. I chose to try to restore my car to the day it was sold in 1969 in Milan, except for the Stebro system. And I painted that as you saw. I've lived and suffered with the results of my decisions to keep it as-original. My magnesium three-blade fans don't keep the car cool. My Marelli alternator doesn't keep the battery charged very well. My original A/C compressor keeps leaking refrigerant. I could make a long, long list of things that don't work very well and things that technology has left behind. Since you don't get your car judged anymore, maybe you should ask yourself, "What's going to make it more fun to drive and require less work, and rework, and rework?"
Tom Kizer
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)