FCA Judging

[Michael Bayer]

This year's FCA national meet was another year in which fewer pre Fiat era cars showed. As more and more cars show for Tom's gatherings, less and less are showing for the Club meets. A material factor seems to be the 100 point judging criteria that has zero tolerance for the wear and tear or the necessary compromises of truly driven cars. The evolving result is what now is at the FCA meets are 60s era cars that are either trailer queens that platinum or driven cars that silver or worse. This in contrast to the 3XX classes where only the true disaster cars don’t get platinum. Further without a platinum, a car cannot compete for the overall awards like the “Ferraris meant to be driven award” (this year there was an amazing 160,000 mile 30 year owner car but, because it did not Platinum, he was not eligible for the award).

FCA has attempted adjust its awards criteria in for one set of cars, those unrestored, to staunch the flood of needless complete redos being "Ralphed" in order to save some original examples, but seeing it applied, it is clear to me there is little clarity amongst the judges as to what is in or out and what differential judging criteria are to be used and but for some very special cars getting to Pebble, it seems to have had little effect.

So rather than disturbing the Concours rules now so well set, what do you think about a “Driven Class” for Pre Fiat - post Coach Work eras road cars (like “Preservation”) and spot them 15 points into the judging, while assessing their totals to existing point deduction items with awards based on a 100 point total and scale? It would be important that the Judges have the right to refuse entry into this class, but what would be that criteria? Evidence of XXXXX real miles per year? No trailering? etc, What do you think? M

[Timo]

“Driven Class” for Pre Fiat - post Coach Work eras road cars (like “Preservation”) and spot them 15 points into the judging, while assessing their totals to existing point deduction items with awards based on a 100 point total and scale? It would be important that the Judges have the right to refuse entry into this class, but what would be that criteria? Evidence of XXXXX real miles per year? No trailering? etc, What do you think? M

An excellent idea, which IMO could also include, with perhaps some small distinction differences, those Coach Work cars, assuming any would show up (?).

[Michael Bayer]

Yes, but darn few of them are driven these days, M

[zac]

I like that formula or at least beginning the discussion, something has to be done to draw more of the old cars out of the garages and trailers to these events or it will slowly turn into a new car display. I also think it is very short sighted of the club to continue down this path without seeing the writing on the wall. Even though I am in the business of restoring the cars to the un-driveable level at times that is only a very small percentage of the cars and we need to encourage and reward all the owners to come out. One of the main attractions to the club events is the owners and their stories/experiences with the cars so if we discourage the long time owners who actually use their cars we loose that entire segment of the club. I am of the younger generation and can appreciate the new cars and watching the challenge cars run the track but I am also very passionate about the old cars so I would hate to see them disappear from the national meets. I see the 308/TR and newer cars like a gateway drug to the older cars for my generation, I knew of the Magnum PI 308 as a kid but did not have any exposure to the older cars until i staring working on them in my 20's. How can the new car buyers gain a true appreciation for the company and it's history if they are not exposed the pre-70's cars???

One of the main changes I think we can implement in the mean time is to keep organizing the friendly events that encourage all to come without judging or judgement. I also like John Bishop's(365GTC/4) concept of the carbureted car runs that he puts together down under, run's with older cars only are just different than new car runs. I have been on many of the rallies and runs both here and in the states and it is a real eye opener to see the cars being driven and enjoyed on the roads as opposed to just being trailered to the grass. Don't get me wrong I like the car shows and I feel that is one of the best ways for the public to be exposed to cars they may never see or even hear of without them. There just has to be a happy balance of both to keep the new blood coming in and to keep the cars from stuck in the garages of the world.

my $.02

Zac

[Timo]

I sort of second many of Zacs opinion, with some small exceptions. Having myself been in the restoration business for about 20 years now, producing numerous concourse/award winning results, albeit most of them something other than F-cars, I've been an "enthusiast/hobbyist" over 30 and still makes me cringe when a client tells me, at the end of our "journey" through the restoration of his/her car, that it's now "too nice to drive" and which is something I always try to dispel for them by not only showing the cars ability to run and drive as it was meant, by putting it through it's paces for at least 100+ miles before releasing it, but also encouraging them to do so every chance they get. To do anything less with the car (i.e just garaging and trailering it to shows) IMO, proves more often than not that the owners of such cars are not really "car guys". but instead more like posers/wannabees/speculators and which in itself should perhaps earn a point (or two ?) deduction.

[Timo]

Evidence of mileage could fairly easily (?) be tracked and archived by the Club, at least in events where they provide judging. Just add a column to judging sheet, next to serial number ? This, of course, could serve other purposes also.
Some other brand clubs also provide recognition of driving a car to event by giving an special award or certificate to one driving farthest to attend, which definitely will separate "real cars" from trailer-queens and if one is trying hard enough, such effort may even earn a "bad luck" award .

And as to new blood (hopefully) coming into "our passion", I've always advocated "wear-it-out-while-its-Yours" attitude, because in such way one can get the full benefit of owning "a car" and it also preserves the wonderful world of restorations to be tackled by future generations, again and again and again...., but unfortunately, in today's world, too many owners grade their car(s) as "investment" and as such, more and more will continue to become "Ralphed" .

[kare]

Investment factor has also moved decent cars from "perfectly restorable" into "beoynd help" category. I find it pretty funny that real hobbyist dig out old Chevrolets up from a swamp and restore them, but a few dents and little corrosion is enough for a Ferrari to be parted out. Does not exactly make me want to be recognized as a Ferrari person... Best wishes, Kare

[sam231]

Just so you know up front, I am currently the FCA regional director of New England. That being said, I agree with all this discussion. Part of the problem resides in the fact that Ferrari now pumps out over 6,000 cars a year and a lot of the young folk prefer the new models over the "old". I think it discourages a lot of vintage owners from showing up because they are overwhelmed by the sheer numbers over modern cars around them. I drive my car a lot, and do very much appreciate a judging category that recognizes the wear and tear of regular use as mine shows it.
The FCA does have an award that recognizes both cars that have been driven as well as active owners. It is the Ed Gilbertsen Award and each regional director is allowed to nominate 2 people a year who must attend the FCA National Meet to be judged. Essentially, the award goes to some one who epitomizes Ed's phrase "Ferraris are meant to be driven". The car has to be judged 85 points or better in an FCA concours 12 months or less before the FCA National meet in which the car is entered and at least 85 points at the National too. Support for awards to cars that are regularly used also comes from people in the FCA judging corps like Parker Hall.

[Tom Wilson]

Is it too complected to have a drive and then a judging category only for those who participated in the drive? Kill two birds with one stone. It would also be fun to have the drive end with the cars driving directly onto the lawn to be judged. This "parade" might be a nice addition to a show.

[Lowell]

Two stories:

Years ago, I was at a concours near Seattle. A guy had driven a perfect Countach to it from Olympia. Another guy had brought a Porsche 911 something in a covered truck. He
drove it onto the grass with "booties' that covered the tires to keep them clean, only taking them off after the car had been positioned. He won the judging.

I showed my 330 at the FCA Annual Meet in Monterey in 2004. It got 87.5 points. It did not get a silver award because some guy did not have a good enough car to get a gold
at 90 points, but he did have a slightly better rating than me, and he got the silver rather than me. No other car won a Gold, so he would have got it if he had another point
or so, and then I would have got the Silver. The FCA rules are that all cars with 95 points or better get a Platinum award, while only one car in the Gold and Silver categories
can get an award. This is nuts. All cars that get awards get the honor of being driven to the podium. I think that the rules should be changed so that everyone with 90 -- 94
gets Gold, everyone with 85 -- 89 gets Sliver, but only the Platinum cars get the additional honor of being driven to the podium so as to not create a traffic jam. In my case,
I would have got a Sliver if the other guy's car was only slightly better than it was. This is really nuts.

[Bryan P]

I agree w/ what has been posted so far.
First - the notion of a points cushion for cars that are driven is essential. I tried my best to maintain my QM as a driver, but also as a concours contender. I knew that I was going to take a 2 to 3 point hit everytime I drove onto a field since I had a single-wire 100a AC Delco alternator and a modern, low draw assist fan in place of the inefficient, high draw stock fans - those and a couple of other mods that the trailer queens would never have to do since they're not driven in real-world conditions. I do not know what the appropriate number of points should be, but I would think between 5 and 15 would accomplish a sort of parity between the driven cars and the trailer queens.

Another issue that I feel needs to be addressed is the placement of cars in certain classes that leads to inconsistencies in judging. Dempsey's QM is a case in point. While the 330GT 2+2s were placed in the same class with 400is, Mark's 365GT 2+2 was placed with 275GTB'4s, Daytonas and a 330GTS; cars that exceed the value of a QM by 3 to 5 times. The practical reality is that the cost of achieving a concours points relative to the car's value is much more expensive for a QM than it is for a Daytona or a 275. And I guarantee you that the QM is driven much, much more than either the Daytonas and 275s for the reasons mentioned in Timo's and Kare's posts. Mark's QM should have been judged w/ the 330 and 400 2+2s - apples to apples. I know that in the purely academic sense, the groupings shouldn't matter - that the cars are supposed to be judged on their own merits - but I can't help believe that the judging lenses used for judging 275s and Daytonas will always find fault w/ the QM that is driven thousands of miles a year more than the former examples. I will never forget the feeling of frustration at the 2006 National when I discovered at the end of the day that our "vintage" 2+2 class in fact included Mondials that were 20 years newer than our cars. Again - while it is not supposed to matter (since they technically can give as many platinum wards as there are cars), there is an entirely different level of dedication/pain/cost that goes into maintaining a 40 year old car than a 20 year old car. Since there is only one silver and one gold award, the driven 2+2s definitely feel the pinch - you can have a very good car and still leave a show empty-handed.

The trouble w/ the current awards that aspire to reward the cars that are driven is that they still set the bar too high. The yellow GTC at 2010 that had 160,000 miles under the current owner did not qualify for any of these awards - it stood no chance in the points game because it was competing against freshly restored Daytonas and 275s.

As for the trouble we are having keeping the vintage cars - especially the drivers- attending the FCA events, I agree that there is clearly a shift in the demographic. I may be guilty of stereotyping here, but my sense is that the average buyer of the 6000+ cars that Ferrari puts out each year tends to view the car as a lifestyle accoutrement, with little understanding or knowledge of Ferrari history. Although I believe my father is going to retire the 500 Mondial from the "Concours rat race" (as he puts it), he will continue to show the car for display only and track the car. His primary mission, besides entertaining himself on the track, is to preach the gospel of Ferrari history to these younger buyers. If he is able to give even one of them the "religion", he has had a successful weekend.

[330GT]

...I showed my 330 at the FCA Annual Meet in Monterey in 2004. It got 87.5 points. It did not get a silver award because some guy did not have a good enough car to get a gold at 90 points, but he did have a slightly better rating than me, and he got the silver rather than me. No other car won a Gold, so he would have got it if he had another point or so, and then I would have got the Silver. The FCA rules are that all cars with 95 points or better get a Platinum award, while only one car in the Gold and Silver categories can get an award. This is nuts. All cars that get awards get the honor of being driven to the podium. I think that the rules should be changed so that everyone with 90 -- 94 gets Gold, everyone with 85 -- 89 gets Sliver, but only the Platinum cars get the additional honor of being driven to the podium so as to not create a traffic jam. In my case, I would have got a Sliver if the other guy's car was only slightly better than it was. This is really nuts.

I only wish that I had loaned my 330 tool kit to the guy that beat Lowell out. I had my car there but didn't have it judged so the toolkit was just sitting in the trunk. The other car didn't have a tool kit. Mine might have given it the extra points needed for gold leaving Lowell with the silver.

[Tom Wilson]

Ok, this is off topic, but many of us who don't (can't) compete have stuff that we would be willing to lend someone who is being judged. If one of you plan to be judged, feel free to let us know if you are missing a tool or manual and maybe one of us who are attending can bring one.

[Timo]

Ok, this is off topic, but many of us who don't (can't) compete have stuff that we would be willing to lend someone who is being judged. If one of you plan to be judged, feel free to let us know if you are missing a tool or manual and maybe one of us who are attending can bring one.

I'm sorry, Kerry and Tom, but this is starting to go perhaps bit too far. Who's trying to fool who ? If a car can't stand among others on its own merits, what's the point of having it judged ? Next, somebody is going to suggest to lend correct wheels, tires, heater hoses or an engine to a friends car, so it can achieve couple points higher score ???

[tyang]

Ok, this is off topic, but many of us who don't (can't) compete have stuff that we would be willing to lend someone who is being judged. If one of you plan to be judged, feel free to let us know if you are missing a tool or manual and maybe one of us who are attending can bring one.

I'm sorry, Kerry and Tom, but this is starting to go perhaps bit too far. Who's trying to fool who ? If a car can't stand among others on its own merits, what's the point of having it judged ? Next, somebody is going to suggest to lend correct wheels, tires, heater hoses or an engine to a friends car, so it can achieve couple points higher score ???

Lending books and tools is a practice that is common on the show field. It's frowned upon if people are doing it from the same class, but otherwise I have not heard of judges otherwise objecting. I'm neutral in the matter, and in that case, neutral in all of this showing/judging. At the risk of sounding corny, the main thing is to have fun. People are naturally competitive, and in the Ferrari world, you can imagine how it collects the Alpha Male into the competition. I'm enjoying the thoughtful comments, but will continue to stay neutral!

Tom