Painting "the car"

[abrent]

So, many of you will know that my GTE has been in bits for years at a paint shop. I finally spat the dummy about a month ago, collected the car and moved it to a new shop. SO, now there is questions about what was done - and how - and of course the new guy's are wanting to rip off all the primer and filler (bog for you Australians) and return the car to bare metal to see what they have and where to go next. Not objecting myself - but they are talking about a process that must be fairly new and may or may not be a good idea on a 60's Ferrari, and I wanted to run it by *anyone* who might have an opinion about such things.

My knowledge of car repair is limited, but I understand it as, you replace the rusty metal, beat it so it's straight, use polymer filler where you need to, apply a high-build primer, level, and then paint two-pack. This ought to last, say 10 years, under normal wear and tear, assuming it's been done right.

The new guy's are talking about a strip to bare metal, including removing all the filler that has already been applied, and then applying a epoxy etch primer - even over the lead, everywhere, and then filling/sanding/high build primer - etc. Seems that this new process will be impervious to rust. Will last forever, I'm told. Not sure myself if the extra expense is worth it or if there might be problems with this approach. Anyone wish to comment?

Regards,

Andrew.

[330GT]

Well, rust occurs from the inside unless the paint gets chipped or cracked to bare metal. So having a super primer over the metal doesn't make much sense to me. It isn't going to keep the metal from rusting through from inside. Now a super primer on the inside of all the body panels and cavities would be great, but most aren't accessible, much less being able to clean them enough to have the primer stick.

When I did the bodywork on the 330 myself, I applied a layer of filler over all of the body and then sanded it smooth, down to where I was just seeing metal through very thin layer of filler while keeping the lines of the car correct. This typically involved sanding through the bondo in a couple of places (thus creating a high spot of metal), more filler in that area and doing it again. Any super primer on that area would have had to be re-applied. Now, I'm sure that a professional body man wouldn't make as many mistakes as I did, but it is difficult to stop at just the right point, while trying to keep the filler as thin as possible everywhere.

[abrent]

Sounds pretty logical Kerry.
They are talking about epoxy priming the whole car, so it would be in all the nooks and cranny's, but as you correctly pointed out, getting in to those places and making the primer stick would be alot of work - assuming it was to be done right.
What did you think would be the lifetime of the painting you did, and has it stood up? Anything you would have done differently?

Zac, you must have thought about this as well - any comments?

Regards,

Andrew.

[tyang]

Hi Andrew,

Epoxy primer and self etching primer is pretty nice stuff. The self etch primer sticks real well to the bare metal surfaces. Epoxy primers are catalyzed primers which dry very hard and durable. Most shops use this stuff as the norm. There's also a switch towards water based paints for environmental reasons. From what I understand most clear coats are already water based, and the final switch over is in the base/color coat. I have a silver car right now in the shop that was done in all water based paint, and it looks pretty nice, with no difference to the old oil based clear/base coat paints that I can tell. How well this stands the test of time, who knows.

A big thing to consider is the chemistry involved with painting a car. The painter you choose has to be very familiar with the product they use, and how not to have problems arise later on. One of the reasons painters like to start with bare metal is the liability of problems with someone else's primer reacting badly with their products. Painting has a lot of chemistry from brand to brand, and how it reacts to someone else's product is sometimes unknown. Another problem is the the flux from old or new lead work can bloom through the primer layer, ruining the paint surfaces. I've seen this happen. A good sealer is necessary to seal the layers of metal work from the paint layers. When a paint shop offers to do a job, they can only guarantee what they can control. If you want them to stand behind their work, don't give them a reason to place blame somewhere else.

Will you be applying a metallic paint? That opens a whole host of other issues, but if you're picking a solid color, don't worry about it!

If done right, and you keep the car stored in a garage, I see no reason why you wouldn't get more than 10 years out of a paint job. If all you want is 10 years, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised...but then again, you certainly are closer to the hole in the ozone than us!

Tom

[zac]

Hello Andrew,

To answer your question specifically, most painters I know put a catalyzed primer on the bare metal first than do the filler work over that with successive stages of primer and body work as prep work continues. Problem your new paint shop will have is that if he doesn't start from square one and do it his way and there is any problem down the road it is now his problem. Also think about the process metal will rust under the body filler if there is no barrier between the two, the metal even rusts under the lead work if the metal gets wet enough or any air can get in there. I know first hand what a crappy deal it is to remove a car from a shop and bring it to another but in the end you started the project with the hopes of doing it right the first time and there is no sense in cutting corners now.

I do agree with Kerry and the car is more than likely rusting from the inside already and no amount of undercoating will stop that, however I have seen first hand the results of improperly applied body filler over bare metal and the end result causing rust bubbles under the paint job.

It's a tough call but you also have to respect the opinion of the new shop and do it their way

Zac

[Al Pezzella]

Hey Andrew,
I just had my car painted, and it was stripped down to bare metal, we did start with a catalyzed primer and then we used apoxy primer and fillers, I was amazed on the amount of stages of blocking and filling and blocking and filling. This took over two months to do. I did use metallic paint and the car came out perfect. According to the body shop, as long as the car is garaged and not subjected to harsh environment, that the paint will last over 30 years. But as Kerry mentioned, the rust usually will start from inside. My recommendation would be to start from bare metal.

Regards,Al
1967 330GT2+2

[abrent]

Hi Guy's,

Thanks for all the input, and I’ve taken onboard the comments from all’yall. A couple of things have come to light in conversations with the painter; one of the problems with my car specifically is how long certain panels have been in primer. There is no UV protection in the primer, so if the car, -say gets put outside in the yard during the day, as my car has been, to make room in the shop- then the primer degrades. We can see that on certain areas. The old shop say's that the metal was primed, and then filler applied, but there is no actual way of proving that without stripping it off. This "need for proof" and the state of some of the primer from UV exposure means that a strip back to bare metal is a certainty at this point. I know all the metal is fine, and there is no rust, so at least there is some salvageable work from the "last guy's". As you have all pointed out, while the car will rust from the inside out, I understand now that problems with the final paint layer can occur from other factors. I guess it's a given that we have to do extra work to minimize these other potential problems.

Hey - on the bright side, in the future when the car is stripped to make a replica at least the body will look great for years afterwards.

[abrent]

Hi everyone, got another question about painting the car.

I am keen to find out what everyone thinks about the "places you don't see" on a vintage ferrari. Specifically the "satin black" painted parts. The current painters want to use a "stoneguard" product in the cabin as opposed to the regular finish of a painted satin black and I am not so sure. I have stipuated that we paint the engine bay and trunk in the standard black paint, and after much prep work that is ready to go. I also have finished the suspension mounts and the chassis rails to be painted in the satin black and the rest of the underside in a "coarse finish" modern stoneguard product for the rest of the underside.
Anyone have an opinion on the area's of the car usually covered by carpet or trim panels? Would you go with original finish or a superior "fine finish" stoneguard that perhaps would be a better rust preventative.

Good news is we matched the original "rossa corsa" paint and the body is very straight and ready to go.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Regards, Andrew.

[tyang]

Hi Andrew,

I'm glad you're making good progress!

Painting interior panels will make a difference with rust protection considering whatever you put on the sheet metal will be better than the bare steel the factory used! We're fixing a floor section on 2259 and there are sections that were not even welded to connecting sections or seam sealed. The panels were crudely gas welded in spots, and it left a lot of places for water to get trapped and rust the bare sheet metal through!

Tom

[Tom Wilson]

As there will be occasional slippage in the carpet parts, the color below should be a decent match with the rest of the car. However, I cannot imagine that it will need the extra protection paint. The carpet & leather will protect it from chips & wear and the primer job you have already done is probably more rust proofing than the car got from the factory. The rust we typically see is from water holding in the fiberglass inside the floor panels and sitting in the bottoms of the doors; problems that you have already fixed. I think that the regular paint would be quite sufficient.

I like the heavy duty stuff underneath, though.

[tyang]

I think the places I would pay close attention to would be inside the doors and behind the splash shields in the fenders. These are notorious water traps. Make sure there's good drainage and good rust proofing in these areas. The inner fenders behind the front wheels collects dirt and debris kicked up from the tires despite the splash shields. The dirt holds water against the inner fenders, eventually rusting the panel.

Tom Y

[klv]

Having had my GTV painted in Australia, compared to the 365 painted here in the UK, the main thing I noted is that you should go for the best level of protection possible and if you can, try and wax inject (or similar rust preventative material) as much as possible once the car is painted and before reassembly starts. Ultimately the best protection is to 'dip' the chassis/body unit in a suitable zinc type coating or similar - a couple of companies do this in the UK now - but it is not foolproof either.

I think that painters are quite restricted in materials now too - check if they use water based or oil based finishes. The GTV was done in water based paint and it stonechips very easily. The 365 was done in oil based finish (which has to be imported from Germany despite being manufactured in the UK - go figure) and it seems a 'stronger' paint finish. Of course, that could partly be down to the application of the paint, but it is a noticeable difference.

At least it's good that the project is moving forward! You might get along to one of the David McKay rallies there downunder in a few years

[abrent]

Thanks for all the tips guy's.

Anyone got an opinion on the satin black engine bay color - PPG, Wurth.... Etc.

Later.

[abrent]

It seems a bit lighter red in the photo's, but it's finally painted....

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[tyang]

Hi Andrew,

Congratulations! I know this is a monumental step for you!

Tom