GTE Safety Belts

[Tom Wilson]

While stripping down 4247, Zac and I came across two empty reinforced bolt holes on the transmission tunnel and two on each side of the body, inside, behind the seats. They looked like mounting points for seat belts, but there were no holes in the leather indicating that they were ever used. I have one vintage photo of a GTE with seat belts, and that was Sergio Pininfarina's personal car, so I thought that might be a one-off.

However, I just uncovered a copy of the shipping manifest for GTE 3277, wherein the factory is shipping the car from Italy to Chinetti's shop in New York. The description is "One Ferrari 250 Granturismo Automobile Bodied Coupe' Pininfarina 2+2 with five chromed wire wheels and tires, set of tools, radio set "Blaupunkt Koln" and safety belts. Engine/chassis No. 3277/GT". I was surprised to see safety belts and a radio listed!

I talked to Marcel Massini and he thought that the radio and safety belts were sent in boxes with the car and installed by the dealer if necessary. This would explain all the things listed on the manifest, as they were separate items from the car that could be stolen by the shipper. It also explains my bolt holes, as the car was prepared for belts, but they were never installed. Tom Y - Did your America have these bolt holes? Does anybody else have these holes, or better yet, safety belts?

It does not, however, explain the variety of locations for speakers that show up in the car. One would think that if the factory was shipping radios, that the car would already be pre-wired for speakers. And why weren't speakers listed on the manifest? I have seen a lot of speakers mounted on the passengers side of the forward transmission tunnel cover. Maybe that speaker was installed at the factory and all others were added by radio shops later in the cars life. Just a theory.

Thought you all would be interested.

Bolt Holes Transmission.jpg (111.79 KiB) Viewed 9993 times

Belt Holes Body.jpg (97.51 KiB) Viewed 9993 times

[tyang]

Hi Tom,

Check this post I wrote 10 years ago:
http://www.tomyang.net/cars/ferrari133.htm

Tom

[250GT]

Tom, that hole in the second foto is far to small for savety belt bolt .
looks like 8 mm to me
not recommended to use!

C.

see pic below

[Tom Wilson]

Tom - I am having trouble remembering what i ate for breakfast, let alone what you wrote 10 years ago! You did appear to have the same thoughts back then as I am having now though.

I have written to the owner of 3277 to get photos of his belts, if he does indeed have any. I will also make a better scan of the Sergio Farina photo (sorry, it was Farina, not Pininfarina) to see if we can identify the rear mounting point. It is a three point belt though. You can see the bad scan here: http://www.ferrari250gte.com/i/library_ ... utocar.pdf

I also got to drive Ben Galdsten's 330 2+2 this last weekend and it had three point belts that rode rather high. He did not know if they were original, but they were certainly old. They covered your torso, not your lap, which is certainly not a modern configuration.

I do agree that the bolts on the body would have to be rather small, but what else would they have been used for?

[kare]

The third point was always done through the floor panel.

[250GT]

.

I do agree that the bolts on the body would have to be rather small, but what else would they have been used for?[/quote]


The inside PF constructionframe used these four little holes for alignment insidepanels, than outsidewings were welded.

Yes Kare, through the bottum with" ancor "plates.

C.

[Tom Wilson]

So we have the belt going from the floor panel by the door to the transmission tunnel to where? If there were bolts pre-installed on the transmission tunnel, it would seem logical that they would be installed on the other two points as well, not that logic was alwyas used on these cars!

By the way, 4247 came with two scrap steel plates underneath the car, with eye-bolts going through the rear floor pans and bolting on to them. Lap belts were attached to that. I don't think they are original

[tyang]

One of the bolt holes in my car took a larger bolt, but I think the third mounting point for the shoulder belt is a little low. Too low of a shoulder mount will cause spinal compression in a frontal impact, but I used it anyway, figuring I either save my spine, or save my face as it impacts the wood steering wheel!

Tom

[tyang]

So we have the belt going from the floor panel by the door to the transmission tunnel to where? If there were bolts pre-installed on the transmission tunnel, it would seem logical that they would be installed on the other two points as well, not that logic was alwyas used on these cars!

By the way, 4247 came with two scrap steel plates underneath the car, with eye-bolts going through the rear floor pans and bolting on to them. Lap belts were attached to that. I don't think they are original

http://www.tomyang.net/cars/ferrari319.htm

All what I did can be found if you do a search for "belts" in the bottom left corner of this website!

Tom

[DWR46]

The original belts for those cars were made by the Irvin Parachute Company. They have ONLY TWO attachment points. In effect they are a shoulder belt only with no lap belt. I still have the original belts from my GTB. The buckles are metal-to-metal, but do not"click" together, they just kind of overlap, so they can fall apart unless pulled fairly tight.
The buckles have a small parachute emblem on them.

[william]

Hi Tom W.

My 250 has the same holes...I need to check, but I think I used the trans tunnel for my inner mounts.

[zac]

Here is a set of the useless(original) belts that Dyke (DRW46)is referring to. Unless they are cinched down so tight you can't breath they just pop loose at every bump you hit, I imagine they would no fair much better in an actual accident. I remember one rally I was on with my 8 year old daughter next to me in the car that had these belts and she was actually nervous that they kept coming unbuckled, she said "I think a piece of rope tied around the waist would be more effective:)"

http://cgi.ebay.com/SUNBEAM-TIGER-ALPIN ... 500wt_1156

Zac

[kare]

There are two screwholes in each fixing points to mount a special bracket. Tom's has likely been drilled to take a single screw, and this would probably have resulted in a failure in case of an accident. The bracket was designed so that the bolts align with the pull of the belt, so the rear bolt is stressed just with normal tension, avoiding bending tension almost completely. When changing to take a later 1-point fixture the whole system should be redesigned. The fixing point just isn't strong enough to take the bending and would probably distort badly and rip off the body if loaded that way.

Tom's lower point has likely been redesigned (to take a bracket with a foot against the transmission tunnel and two bolts behind it). Mine has the two bolt pattern in different position (aligning with the pull of the belt). This may suggest that the earlier design in my car was not strong enough.

My car has Swedish Bilbol-belts installed sometime around 1970. Bilbol AB was a very serious safety belt company that did a lot of research and development on the subject. Bilbol played an essential part in creating the "Swedish safety concept" made famous by Volvo and Saab. When installing the belts, they either stripped the interior to find the mounts or then they received documentation from Bjurstrom and/or the factory.

http://koti.welho.com/kpietil4/gte/sisus01b.jpg

PS-offtopic: and yes, the upper fixing point is located too low and an accident would likely result in spinal injury (spine does not take violent twist and compression very well). Next generation of belts used a vertical beam to raise the belt to shoulder level and eliminate compression. It reduced spinal injuries significantly. The next problem would be twist of neck when crashing sideways. Modern airbag systems offer moderate protection but eliminating the risk completely would really require the use of a HANS device.

10 years ago I crashed with a truck taking the impact on driver side rear corner to protect my family. Thinking back to it now, I'm really happy I did my share of ice racing as a kid. My wife (the passenger) come avoided a serious twist as she had her right shoulder tied up with the belt. I took the twist with right shoulder free, which resulted my right cheek touching driver side side window with my butt still tied down into the seat. That is a pretty extreme position and it was alla over in one tenth of a second. I feel very lucky to have avoided spinal injury. I just had to have the cervical vertebraes pulled out of a solid lock-up. Kid - 2 year old at the time - was 100% safe in a safety seat so buying a good one and installing it properly really paid off.

[Tom Wilson]

Just to make sure we are on the same page, there are two discussions going on in this thread. First is to figure out how Ferrari did the seat belts for historical purposes and second is how they should be done now for safety purposes. I don't want anyone to think that I am planning to install them the historicly correct (read unsafe) way.

I have a long way to go before I have to decide on how to install them, but it would be great to see how some of you have done it. Tom Y's installation looks good and is comfortable, but I am open to suggestions.

On the historic side, in 1961, The Autocar magazine test drove Sergio Farina's GTE, which did have safety belts. As you can see, it has a lap and shoulder belt with a very large buckle. I can't see where it attaches to the body, but it appears to be the right height to attach at the mounting point I have on my car. I have been told that this is a racing belt, but as it was Mr. Farina's car, it would be hard to argue that it was not correct. I always enjoy looking at the guy in the back who is trying so hard to look comfortable..

Farina Seat Belt 1 - Small.jpg (62.46 KiB) Viewed 9879 times

Farina Seat Belt 2 - Small.jpg (104.47 KiB) Viewed 9879 times

[Tom Wilson]

In the same issue of The Autocar is an ad for after market safety belts, which shows another way to accomplish the task.

Lexington Seat Belt - Small.jpg (110.77 KiB) Viewed 9876 times