Mixed Feelings

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TOMKIZER
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Location: Québec City

Mixed Feelings

Post by TOMKIZER »

As some of you know by now, with Zac’s help, I sold my 365 GT 2+2 (Serial No. 12293). As the thread title indicates, I’ve got mixed feelings about selling it. Though probably nobody cares, in order not to discourage someone who has been lusting after a Ferrari but has not yet made the leap, I’m going to explain why I sold it.

For me, I suspect it was a bigger leap than for Bryan P. He’s still an active Ferrari owner, if only by proxy. Boy, I wish my dad had had a Mondial while I was growing up.

When I joined and made my first post in April 2005, I had owned my Queen already for 20 years, had attempted to rebuild the engine myself, then came to my senses and had it finished by an expert. I was fortunate enough to discover Tom’s site in 2005, which immediately gave me the courage to start the body restoration.
Many of you followed it through the following years leading up to FCA2008 in Toronto and FCA2009 in Elkhart Lake (sans Ferrari).

My mixed feelings were already starting after Elkhart Lake. I was feeling conflicts between the desire to make my car good enough to win a platinum and being able to really live by the phrase that is yelled out at the end of every organized Ferrari Club banquet, “Ferraris are meant to be driven!”

Shortly after Elkhart lake, I felt that my Queen was capable of winning a platinum, but the next official Ferrari meet was a long way off. My need to drive the car became stronger than my desire to keep it at a platinum level. If I was going to win a platinum, I would have to do it before I drove it too much. Each time I drove it for an hour, there were two or three hours of retouch and redetailing. I decided to try to satisfy one of the desires (platinum) before the other took control (drive it to destruction). My conflict of feelings came to a head in September 2009, when I posted on Tom’s site:

“I know this is probably the craziest thing I've ever even thought of, but, here goes. By the time Mid-January skates around, I'll probably be under about 4 feet of snow with about 6 inches of ice coating my driveway. In spite of that, I would like to know, "If I were to throw caution to the wind (or blizzard) and drive from Quebec City (3 hours Northeast of Montreal) to Palm Beach, Florida (for Cavallino) in my Queen (1,750 miles), at what point along the East coast would I most likely drive out of the snow and salt?"

What eventually resulted was the “Snowball Run” from Quebec City to Palm Beach for Cavallino XIX. The snowball started small, as they usually do, with only my car on a trailer to meet Tom Y. in New York. Then two cars to Mark Dempsey’s in Maryland. Then three cars driving to from Maryland to Savannah and on to Palm Beach. Total age of the three Ferraris? 129 years!

OK, I did it. Been there – Done that. It took three or four months to reverse the damage done by that round trip to Florida in the winter. The car had been a foot deep in snow on the trailer when I got back. The car was finally back to platinum level in the Summer.

But the conflict was still there. This time it was, “Do I drive it and enjoy it, or do I let it sit in the garage and look at it, to avoid it loosing its value and beauty?
I finally realized what I had done. I had restored the car beyond my capability of enjoying it. The stress of driving it was greater than the enjoyment it brought. Every time I passed someone, I found myself changing lanes before I got too close to them, for fear of a stone. If someone passed me, I complained while I braked because they cut back in too quickly. I was loosing it.

Advice. If you suffer from both needs – drive and show, then buy two cars, one to drive and one to show.

I sold it because I can't drive it and keep it at a platinum level, and I can’t be satisfied by just going into the garage and looking at it. It’s too expensive in licensing, insurance, and deterioration-with-age costs.

I decided to sell it and move on to “resurrecting” my 1967 Mercedes 230SL “Pagoda”, which has been neglected for all the years I was working on the Ferrari. Notice I used the word “resurrect”, not “restore”.

I’ll still be here on Tom’s site, but mostly as a lurker. However, my ego won’t let me butt-out if I see a thread to which I can’t resist responding.
I’m not leaving. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who helped me in my 5 year long quest to get to Cavallino, and who made the last 6 years of my Ferrari ownership infinitely more enjoyable than the first 20.

I guess I’ll have to work on learning German now.

Bis später and Ciao,

Tom Kizer
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
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tyang
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by tyang »

Hi Tom,

I DO care! You and your car was the subject of a couple of dinner conversations during the Radcliffe weekend in the Mid Atlantic region. We kind of suspected as much, but it was good to hear it directly from you.

Although your car has already been sold, I would have suggested showing the car, and then retiring it from the show circuit to drive and enjoy, stone chips and all! Although I only attained a silver award at an FCA show at my car's best, I don't worry about it anymore. I'll clean it thoroughly if it's about to be shown, but realize my car was meant to be used and her real show days are over. The car represents an "honest" car when it's shown, and I'm proud of it where ever she's on display.

I hope you continue to participate in this Forum as your friendship, expertise, and presence is always welcome. The cars may have brought us together, but it's the great people that makes this site and associated activities so enjoyable. I speak for many others on this site, that we hope you won't be a stranger!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
william
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by william »

Ahhhh! that sucks!... well I'm sure that was very difficult selling the Ferrari for youTom.." we" (Roland and I) had a great time with you and your French navi at Elkhart Lake 2009. Angie and I Loved seeing you and the 365 tool around Plam Beach at the Cavallino in.. I'm sure you'll stick around this site for needed advice... You made 12293 a beautiful car....... Cheers to you buddy!

William "Todd" Hudkins
William
1979 Avanti s/n Rqb-3016
1962 GTE s/n 3447
1960 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spider 1495*09775
Jimmy Chen Shiba
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by Jimmy Chen Shiba »

Thank You for sharing your feelings with us, TOMKIZER. I understand what you mean and I can empathize with your emotions and dilemna. It is unfortunate that you had to undergo such frustrations. Setting such high goals for yourself must have been a challenge and gratification when achieved. Nevertheless, seems like the process was much of the fun. When accomplished, the hard decision and torment surface.

Being a nontinkerer and a peripheral member myself, I was hesitant to make any comments. However, I wanted you to know that I enjoyed your post and respect your decision. Rest of my comment is the same as TomY's. Thank You. w/ smiles Jimmy
1969 Dino 246 GT Tipo L #0508; 1973 365 GT4 BB #17585; 1970 365 GTB4 Daytona #13745; 1966 275 GTB 3carb all alloy longnose #08191; and few others
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Tom Wilson
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by Tom Wilson »

I guess I too have mixed feelings on this. I am very sorry that we will not see you at the Ferrari gatherings, but I also understand why. After you have put all that blood, sweat and tears into making the car as close to perfect as possible, a rock ding must hurt. Bottom line, the car is supposed to be fun, not a chore, so I think you did the right thing.

I hope that we will be able to see that Mercedes some day...
Tom Wilson - Series III 250 GTE, SN 4247 GT
Curator of the 250 GTE Register
http://www.250GTE.com
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TOMKIZER
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by TOMKIZER »

Tom Wilson wrote:I hope that we will be able to see that Mercedes some day...
Where's FCA2012 going to be? By then, it should have a couple of new floor panels, new paint job, a rebuilt long-block, and be all back together again.

By the way, I think the floor pans on the Pagoda were designed by the guy who designed the 250GTE floor pans.

Next time, no show, just go!

I'll still be around and jump in from time to time.

Thanks guys for the understanding.

Tom Kizer
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
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Tom Wilson
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by Tom Wilson »

Well, I am glad that you will stick around. Now we don't have to find somebody else to teach Dempsey his fifth word of French!
Tom Wilson - Series III 250 GTE, SN 4247 GT
Curator of the 250 GTE Register
http://www.250GTE.com
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sam231
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by sam231 »

Hi Tom,

That is sad but understandable news. All of us only rent our cars for awhile, and I know your passion means that the new owner must have met your high standards to have bought the car. I am sure it will be in caring hands. We love to "play" with a vintage Mercedes too, so don't be a stranger! Or, you can always do what I did, go buy another unloved model, say to heck with the trophies. and drive the crap out of it.

Cheers,

Sam
'72 365 GTC/4 # 14953; ex-owner 330 GT 2+2 # 8025 :>(
zac
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by zac »

Well Tom let me just say that I hope that you parting with your car does not stop you from contributing to this or joining us at the various Ferrari events. I have truly enjoyed corresponding with you over the years and bouncing car ideas and fixes for the various problems encountered while you were restoring your car. It was a pleasure to finally meet you in person last year at Cavallino, it was great to see the banter between you and Mark and to put a face to a name. I still don't think the judges actually comprehended the fact that you guys drove the cars down from the great white north in the dead of winter to attend their event. Really wish they had an extra category for people that restore their cars and actually use them as intended, I think that would bring a whole lot more people and cars out if they could show up with a car they love and enjoy if the so called trailer Queen owners would not pick the cars apart for tiny imperfections. You are not the first person to restore a car and than feel uncomfortable using it after it was all done, such a catch 22 & I don't have the answer for it either.

Owning a Ferrari may be what brings us together but the love of Ferraris is what bonds us all, speaking from a mechanics perspective I am sure the new owner of your car will appreciate all the hard work and care you put into your car which will in turn make his ownership experience much better. I don't get the trophy thing myself and wish is was just about the cars and not the prizes but such is life.

I think as a group we just need to continue working towards a new culture in the community of enjoyable no pressure events to use and share the cars with one another without precluding those who choose to drive their cars. Nothing wrong with restoring the cars to perfection or preserving the original cars and everything in between just would love it if we were all on an equal playing field and were allowed to enjoy the hobby as we see fit without judgement.

Zac
1970 365 gt 2+2 13137, 1997 550 Maranello, 1969 Lamborghini Miura S, 1973 365 GTB/4 Daytona
jcwconsult
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by jcwconsult »

I understand Tom's dilemma. I took my Queen to Corning for FCA2007, thoroughly cleaned but not really restored by me. (The previous owner had done a lot of appearance items and I had helped do a full engine overhaul.) I entered the concours mostly to get a list of what the judges thought could be done for improvement, but not believing I would get any honors. I think the awards were "swapped" and Tom Yang should have taken the Gold I took, and maybe I could have had the Silver he received.

Knowing I would never do the kind of detail restoration tweaks it would take to get a Platinum and then not drive the car very much, I have not entered the car for points again. Instead, I have put about 13,000 miles on it. I do "show" it from time to time, but either for Display Only or in non-points shows.

If I were rich, I would have two Queens - maybe mine to drive and Tom's or Bryan's for show-only. Alas, I only have room and finances for one special car.

Tom's was and is magnificent. I hope its new owner appreciates all the very fine detail work Tom did that got it up to snuff.
Jim Walker
365 GT 2+2 #12451
250GT
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by 250GT »

TomK I can only congratulate you.
this is not a loss !
this is a win win situation.
at an certain age you should not frustate youself by other people.
Espacially not by judges with low knowledge.
I get more and more judging papers on my desk by people who must change something
and DO have the right parts in there cars.

I think there is a limit to how masochistic we should be.

Well with german translations I do not have much problems you are welcome ANY TIME

Cornelis
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klv
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by klv »

I understand where you are coming from Tom K, but I'm sad that the 'quest for platinum' seemed to almost make you fall out of love for the car. I did the comprehensive restoration trick on my 1750GTV after 20 or so years and 100,000 miles of ownership, but it was getting back in and driving it that kept me from that 'downward spiral'. Same with the 365 after it was repainted. I guess I've never been a 'show' person, depsite all my years of being a show judge and organiser.
Anyway, good luck with the new project and keep butting in as often as you like! You have been a great assistance to Kelly and I with our improvement programme on 'Giancarlo' #12009.

Cheers

Andrew S
Kelly La Velle & Andrew Stevens
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Bryan P
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by Bryan P »

Tom K; thank you for taking the time to articulate your reasons and feelings attached to selling your magnificent QM. I think I may have posted a few comments in resposne to "why are you selling" a couple of years ago, but never really addressed it fully, or in retrospect.

Like you, I tried to parse that fine line between actually driving the car often, but maintaining it in show condition. All in all, a very frustrating experience. sicne I was tired of the concours scene, I had a choice either to turn the car into a driver, of sell it to the next guy who was willing to (1) let it become a driver or (2) live the concours life and all that entails. So I sold it to the next guy, who has now sold it to the next next guy who is driving it everyday in Hollywood, CA.

My burn-out w/ concours (and I know I'm in a long list of people) stems from a few things: the required obsession w/ things that do not affect the performance of the car, judges who get it wrong, not being able to use the car they way I'd like to, and FCA's continued inability to properly recognize the cars that get driven - really putting their money where their mouth is re: "Ferraris are meant to be driven." To be fair, it's not just the FCA, but the overall show scene. I think we've discussed this already, but the car that REALLY should have one the "most driven Ferrair" award at FCA 2010 - a 330GT w/ 160,000 miles on it, I believe - did not qualify for for this award because, you guessed it, the car had to be a platinum to qualify for a major. Then there's the year I was nearly dinged 10 points by a judge I had never heard of who decided that my engine was the wrong type because it had "245" stamped on it and not "365." I have also had the extremely privileged experience of being able to live the ultimate concours dream - by proxy - of my dad's car winning big at Pebble Beach - what do you do after that?

Owning/maintaining a vintage Ferrari was also stressful for me; I never knew when I might have that five-figure day when the car might be damaged by another motorist, or just something old letting go on the car, like, oh, a main bearing. Even if you do your own work, getting the right parts is still a problem for these cars for the most part. I have been saved by the good graces of Zac more than once. I am extremely excited to get into my Alfa Sprint Speciale - even though it is a rare car (I have all my glass and crmoe), the drivetrain is straight Alfa Veloce spec - everything, including custom cams, etc, is available from a catalog. Imagine that! Tom, you are about to live that pampered life w/ your 230SL. Enjoy it.

The last thing about selling 11199 - my dad and I are "project" guys. I felt that I was pretty much finished w/ my QM once Dad, Bayer, Garre and I had re-done the gearbox and clutch. Everyone associates my dad w/ his 51-year ownership of the Mondial. But I have lost count of all the other cars we've restored/raced/sold throughout the years. As I sit here, I come up w/ a dozen sports cars that have moved through our respective garages - including a Triumph Stag when I once went temporarily insane. So 0556(0446)MD is really an unusual car for us - it was always the "deferred" project until about 2000. My sense is that you are also a "project" guy as well, Tom; I always enjoy your very technical, detailed posts re: manufacturing unobtainium items.

I agree w/ Zac that we have created our own community of like-minded Ferrari/old italian guys who like wrenching and driving this finicky old stuff. I feel most at home when I am hanging out w/ the Yang guys on either coasts.

Finally, as long as I live in the Mid-Atlantic and Buddy O'Bara continues to own his 330, there will always be a local car that . . . . NEEDS HELP!!!
1968 365 GT 2+2
s/n 11199
1955 s.II 500 Mondial
s/n 0556(0446)MD
1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale
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Yale
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by Yale »

Isn't the most gratifying part of showing your car the camaraderie of the other folks around at the show? How about if all of us make a subset, show the cars as driven. This could be called The Grimeys. And though we are at these shows we don't actually try to compete instead hand out our own awards;

Coolest Car,
Most Horrendous Restoration,
Most Ignorant Owner,
Most Used Car,
Most ridiculous amount of stickers on a car, (this could be called The Buddy Award)

To let the stress of showing your car make you want to sell it seems ridiculous to me. Who cares about these silly cups and plaques given out by some absurd cabal of people who take themselves way to seriously? To hell with the deification of Enzo, Steve McQueen, and anyone who would judge your car for what are, for the the most part, specious reasons.

I am open to other suggestions on the name by the way.

Solidarity!
Yale
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
Admiral Goodwrench
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Re: Mixed Feelings

Post by Admiral Goodwrench »

Dear Yale,

I do not disagree about the camaraderie aspect of any car show, but I will say that I personally take great pleasure in answering questions about my car and early Ferrari history and consider it a good show day if at the end of the day my voice is about shot.

May I suggest a magnesium trophy as it is on the lowest level of the food chain, the less noble metal so to speak.

By the way, we need to do something about my pit crew uniforms...

Best regards,

Robert
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500 Mondial SII 0556(0446)/MD
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