This is the best picture I have of mine, the rubbers are original and after beadblasting they look and feel like they have not aged at all. I'd suspect the failed ones on Yale's to be non-origianl items.
Now, just changing the subject a bit to the rubber bushings in the eyes of the leaf springs, these seem to parish alot faster in the later cars as opposed to say the PF coupes. I suspect the reason is that the later cars get greaed at these points and the grease disolves the rubber. When I took my 64 apart, the rubbers had simply vanished. My 59, which does not have rease fittings, the rubbers look completely healthy.
John: I understand that your silentblocs "look" great. However, when they are placed under torque loading, then the old silentblocs can more easily deform and the result is the "rear wheel steering" that Yale was experiencing. Over the years, I have seen many silentblocs that "looked" fine, but when they were replaced, the car drove totally differently. By the way, Alfas are also subject to this same problem
I don't get Forza Magazine anymore so I hadn't seen that article until tonight. Let me say for the record that though I wrote out quotes for the writer he made up what he has me saying and much else in the article is not based in any actual facts. So what the hell, is all I can say. How annoying.
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
Thanks for the clarification,. Now I am on the track again.
Some times I struggle hard with your wording because in some cases it is very special. Not even to find anything in the dictionary. But the more I follow up your posts I get more understanding. Now I even have an idea what is an TS-Special. Seems lika a car to canibalize.
Suebian330 wrote:Thanks for the clarification,. Now I am on the track again.
Some times I struggle hard with your wording because in some cases it is very special. Not even to find anything in the dictionary. But the more I follow up your posts I get more understanding. Now I even have an idea what is an TS-Special. Seems lika a car to canibalize.
Dieter
Hi Dieter,
I apologize in advance for the American-centric colloquialisms, but am always happy to translate to the best of my ability!
As Cornelis has proven, pictures help a lot in eliminating some of the confusion.
Here is Scott McPhee's write up of his head work. I guess he replaced the removeable seats and that this was mis-represented in the Forza article. He is not the clearest communicator but there are pictures http://buildandtune.com/?page_id=3085
Best,
Yale
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
Yale: All of this now makes sense and fits with what I thought should have happened. The item that caused you all the trouble was that some "gorilla" tried to continue cutting the valve seats when they were already worn out. If he had not cut into the chamber metal, a regular seat replacement would have been all that was required. For many years, these cars were not worth the cost of needed repairs, and in many cases were owned by people who either could not afford to repair them correctly, or just did not care.
As for the Forza article, you have just experienced what I found out years ago. Most automotive journalists are not very knowledgeable about cars. They are writers first, and cars are a way to make a living. Some of the most disappointing moments of my life have been when I finally met various famous automotive journalists and found they did not know s--- about cars.
I had the opportunity to check out Yale's engine when Brian first removed it and during repair and rebuild. It was certainly a job for a good welder and machinist, and it's getting harder to find knowledgeable talent to do this type of work, especially on old, porous aluminum castings. I was pretty impressed with the work done. I know how careful Brian was rebuilding it and dialing in the cams. Sad it all took so long. Kinda takes the edge off a good job.
One thing that is interesting is that steel (factory) valves were used. I have rebuilt both my engines using stainless steel valves and used replaceable valve stem caps to protect the tips. The objective being to protect the softer stainless valve tips and adjustment screws and let the stem caps take the abuse. This has worked well, but I find the caps need replacing after about 4k miles. Under the circumstances, I may be inclined to stick with steel valves, although, depending upon hardness, these can chew up the adjustment screws over time. Dyke (and Tom) what are your thoughts about valve materials and the use of valve stem caps?
Now that Yale has a fully operational beast, I hope to see him driving around NJ in Italian aluminum not German steel.
Jim Wickstead wrote:I had the opportunity to check out Yale's engine when Brian first removed it and during repair and rebuild. It was certainly a job for a good welder and machinist, and it's getting harder to find knowledgeable talent to do this type of work, especially on old, porous aluminum castings. I was pretty impressed with the work done. I know how careful Brian was rebuilding it and dialing in the cams. Sad it all took so long. Kinda takes the edge off a good job.
One thing that is interesting is that steel (factory) valves were used. I have rebuilt both my engines using stainless steel valves and used replaceable valve stem caps to protect the tips. The objective being to protect the softer stainless valve tips and adjustment screws and let the stem caps take the abuse. This has worked well, but I find the caps need replacing after about 4k miles. Under the circumstances, I may be inclined to stick with steel valves, although, depending upon hardness, these can chew up the adjustment screws over time. Dyke (and Tom) what are your thoughts about valve materials and the use of valve stem caps?
Now that Yale has a fully operational beast, I hope to see him driving around NJ in Italian aluminum not German steel.
Jim
Hi Jim,
I have personal experience with using stainless valves on my 330 and without lash caps: they won't last long! As you have seen with the 4k mile wear on your lash caps, the stresses on the valve stem is pretty high. We use steel valves on all the rebuilds we do, and change out the adjusters whenever we see them worn during regular valve adjustments. Lash caps have been used as an alternative to completely rebuilding a head but clearances need to be checked before installation. The rocker arms can hit the top of the spring keepers and the adjusters can even hit the bottom of the valve cover with the added height of the lash cap. Care must also me taken to make sure the shoulder of the cap does not touch the spring keeper. The other concern is if the top of the valve is already wallowed out, and a lash cap is installed, it may be very difficult to pull them off.
There has been controversy in the past on this topic, but I've done a lot of research on this and have found other shops have used this method to fix a problem without rebuilding a head. These days, with the rising prices of the cars, full rebuilds seem more warranted than and old-school fix.
I agree with everything Tom says. In addition, one more potential problem with lash caps is that they can come out under very high rpm usage. We have seen engines spit out lash caps when run at very high rpm.
Ferrari designed the valve adjusting screws to be normal maintenance items, so replacing them is to be expected.
Ok I'm going to ask, how many miles between adjustment screw replacements?
When my engine was rebuilt in 1999 stainless steel valves were used. I put 25,000 miles on the engine since then. Is that one reason why my head was in such bad shape?
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
Yale wrote:Ok I'm going to ask, how many miles between adjustment screw replacements?
When my engine was rebuilt in 1999 stainless steel valves were used. I put 25,000 miles on the engine since then. Is that one reason why my head was in such bad shape?
Hi Yale,
Regular valve adjustments will find bad adjusters, every 6K miles. I usually don't replace all of them, only when I find chipped or damaged ones. When we rebuild an engine, we replace them all.
Yale,
I don't believe the stainless valves had anything to do with your valve seat problems. They were rebored too deep by a prior rebuilder I don't recall the condition of your valves when the heads were rebuilt, and I don't recall any comments about valve lash caps. Normally, the start to mushroom over because they are softer material. Makes removing them a chore.
You do need to be careful about maintaining the valve train geometry (actually using any valves) since it has a big effect on valve wear. The valve lash caps need to be surface ground to reduce their sleeve length and their thickness needs to be considered.
Never heard of any caps coming off. The shoulder height is almost 3X the valve clearance. Perhaps if the valve began to float, but other (expensive) noises could then come into play. With the exception of cap replacement all has been well, but I am rather traditional about these engines and appreciated Tom and Dyke's opinions. I would probably revert to steel valves in the future. By the way, do any of you have factory drawings of the valve train that shows dimensions other than diameters? My GTC manual shows no length information for seats, valve guides or valves. All this came up when Yale's engine was being rebuilt. Imagine the fun of rebuilding the valve train with no reference dimension or location to start from..... It's one of the reasons the rebuilders get all those big bucks .... to pay for their aspirin.
Greetings... I used lash caps on the 330 engine when I built it maybe 30 years ago. A friend and very knowledgable Ferrari machinist had commented about the soft original stems and you could see the wear on my old ones. The caps have shown no wear but I have replaced adjusters a couple of times. I got mine from Crower but they don't seem to have the same style anymore. I called them for some info and the person on the other end said please hold then on the phone came the voice saying "Hi, this is Bruce". Tim
1964 330GT 5769 -the big yellow taxi 61&66 Morgan +4's Daimler SP250 Turner 950S and some other dull stuff plus a brand Mercedes C300 4matic
I am impressed that your lash caps showed no wear. Mine were defnintely worn after only light mileage. Still have them as a reference. I used Manley caps for both engines. I had checked the hardness before installing, but I don't recall the number. The fact that Manley sells caps says something.
I had a valve material discussion with a friend who a true gearhead , very experienced ME with a huge background in metals and heat treating. He forwarded the following:
World Products uses Manley race series performance valves and are a great choice for your bracket, oval track, or high performance street engine. All valves are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-842; exhausts are XH-426) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. In addition to being made from high-quality materials, Race series valves are swirl polished and fully machined. Manley Budget series performance valves are high-quality valves at very affordable prices. All are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-480; exhausts are XH-422) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. They're also swirl polished and fully machined. Both the materials used and the heat-treating process are superior to original equipment replacement pieces. These valves are available in stock length and 0.100 in. longer. Manley Street Flo valves are excellent-quality valves at affordable prices. All are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-841; exhausts are XH-424) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. Street Flo series valves are fully machined and swirl polished, and both the materials used and the heat-treating process are superior to those of the Budget replacement series valves. They're available with either straight stems or undercut "Pro Flo" stems for increased flow. Manley Race series performance valves are a great choice for your bracket, oval track, or high performance street engine. All valves are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-842; exhausts are XH-426) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. In addition to being made from high-quality materials, Race series valves are swirl polished and fully machined. Manley Severe Duty series performance valves are a great choice for your high performance or race engine. All valves are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-844; exhausts are XH-428) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. Severe Duty series valves are made of superior materials, are fully machined and swirl polished, and are available with either undercut "Pro Flo" stems or straight stems.
I have no bias either way, and would still be inclined to use steel in the future. Weight, heat transfer all seem to favor Stainless but for the tip wear issue. I note the tips of the Manley valves are hardened, to what degree I don't know. Perhaps I will contact them, get their thoughts and post it.
http://buildandtune.com/?page_id=3085
