Maintenance

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tyang
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Re: Maintenance

Post by tyang »

Jim Wickstead wrote:Tim,

I am impressed that your lash caps showed no wear. Mine were defnintely worn after only light mileage. Still have them as a reference. I used Manley caps for both engines. I had checked the hardness before installing, but I don't recall the number. The fact that Manley sells caps says something.

I had a valve material discussion with a friend who a true gearhead , very experienced ME with a huge background in metals and heat treating. He forwarded the following:

World Products uses Manley race series performance valves and are a great choice for your bracket, oval track, or high performance street engine. All valves are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-842; exhausts are XH-426) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. In addition to being made from high-quality materials, Race series valves are swirl polished and fully machined. Manley Budget series performance valves are high-quality valves at very affordable prices. All are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-480; exhausts are XH-422) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. They're also swirl polished and fully machined. Both the materials used and the heat-treating process are superior to original equipment replacement pieces. These valves are available in stock length and 0.100 in. longer. Manley Street Flo valves are excellent-quality valves at affordable prices. All are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-841; exhausts are XH-424) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. Street Flo series valves are fully machined and swirl polished, and both the materials used and the heat-treating process are superior to those of the Budget replacement series valves. They're available with either straight stems or undercut "Pro Flo" stems for increased flow. Manley Race series performance valves are a great choice for your bracket, oval track, or high performance street engine. All valves are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-842; exhausts are XH-426) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. In addition to being made from high-quality materials, Race series valves are swirl polished and fully machined. Manley Severe Duty series performance valves are a great choice for your high performance or race engine. All valves are made from stainless steel (intakes are NK-844; exhausts are XH-428) with chrome stems and hardened valve tips. Severe Duty series valves are made of superior materials, are fully machined and swirl polished, and are available with either undercut "Pro Flo" stems or straight stems.

I have no bias either way, and would still be inclined to use steel in the future. Weight, heat transfer all seem to favor Stainless but for the tip wear issue. I note the tips of the Manley valves are hardened, to what degree I don't know. Perhaps I will contact them, get their thoughts and post it.

Jim
It would be great to get a hardness reading on the various valve tips and find out what the hardness is on the adjusters as well. I don't know how many different adjuster manufacturers there are, but that may also have something to do with the valve stem wear. The adjuster is supposed to be slightly softer than the valve stem so it will wear first. With so many manufacturers of valves and different specs, the perfect world would be to match the parts to work together.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Jimmyr
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Re: Maintenance

Post by Jimmyr »

Has anyone used the "elephant foot" adjuster screws to obtain correct valve lash when the valve ends are dippled? I think these are sourced from the motorcycle industry.
Jim Wickstead
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Re: Maintenance

Post by Jim Wickstead »

I have seen them used but have no direct experience. The guy who bought my 16,000 mile original condition 275 GTB was talked into rebuilding the engine and had them installing. The good news is they provide much better contact with the valve and because the head articulates, they reduce side loading on the valve guide. The bad news is that they are heavier than the standard adjustment screw and, normally, have a larger dia threaded shaft requiring the rocker arm be drilled and tapped. The end of the rocker must be relieved with an end mill, all of which means you cannot revert to the original adjustment screw, later.

These are usually Porsche parts, but there is a lot of aftermarket stuff available and some of the quality is suspect. I have heard rumors of heads coming off (never seen it) so sticking with the best quality would be important.

Jim
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tyang
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Re: Maintenance

Post by tyang »

Jimmyr wrote:Has anyone used the "elephant foot" adjuster screws to obtain correct valve lash when the valve ends are dippled? I think these are sourced from the motorcycle industry.
I think Rolofs makes a kit? I wonder if these would work as well when the top of the valve stem is already dimpled? There has to be a sliding force that could be affected with a dimpled valve stem putting undue stress on the ball socket.

Tom
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250GT
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Re: Maintenance

Post by 250GT »

From the Piet Roelofs part side:

Improved valve adjustment bolt kit for 250 and 275 type engines.

Advantages of the new valve adjustment bolt with smaller camfollower roll and needle bearings:

The system needs more clearance between the valvestem and the rocker. Therefore smaller rollers on needle bearings, as developed by RE, are used. The advantage of the smaller rollers is the smaller angle between adjustmentbolt and valvestem when the valve is fully opened. This reduces the sideward load on the valvestem.


The force on the valvetip, exercised by the adjustmentbolt, is now spreaded over almost the entire area of the valvetip. The advantage is that the valvestem will not get hollowed anymore and in that way the sideward load on the valvestem will be minimised. This means much less wear on the valveguides.


It is no longer necessary to harden the valvetip, so the elasticity of the material will be maintained.


This whole set-up will reduce friction in the valvetrain. The result is a gain of engine output.


This system can be installed in all 250, 275 and 330 engine types, provided the valvetip is perfectly flat and doesn't show any signs of wear. The advantages mentioned in points 1-4 make the system almost indispensable for racing engines with racing camshafts.

P.S
I use these over 13 years with high cams 10mm and are superior.
Maintanance(valve adj.) is almost unnessarry, no wear at all.
Second best upgrade after high torque starter.

C.
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Jim Wickstead
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Re: Maintenance

Post by Jim Wickstead »

Yes, I had forgotten about this kit. I have heard good things about it. I assume it requires no modification to the rocker. Replacing the roller bushings with needle bearings has been around for a while and it seems like a smart thing to do. What is the cost of the kit? Does either Tom or Dyke have any experience with it?

Jim
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tyang
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Re: Maintenance

Post by tyang »

Jim Wickstead wrote:Yes, I had forgotten about this kit. I have heard good things about it. I assume it requires no modification to the rocker. Replacing the roller bushings with needle bearings has been around for a while and it seems like a smart thing to do. What is the cost of the kit? Does either Tom or Dyke have any experience with it?

Jim
Hi Jim,

I have not had the chance to use this kit yet on a car.

Tom
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DWR46
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Re: Maintenance

Post by DWR46 »

Jim: I also have not used the Roelofs style kits. We do use the American swivel tip screws on some of the race engines, but like others have stated, the end of the valve has to be smooth and not dimpled from screw wear. I have seen occasions where swivel tips have "flipped" over when a valve was floated on a missed shift or a mechanical overrev and this can cause havoc.
Jimmyr
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Re: Maintenance

Post by Jimmyr »

Dyke, who supplies the American swivel tip adjusters, and do you have to use the needle bearings in the rockers for clearance?
DWR46
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Re: Maintenance

Post by DWR46 »

Jim: You can install them without any other modifications. I know Bert Skidmore at Intrepid Motorcar Co. in Reno has them, and am pretty sure most of the usual suspects ( GT CAR, Ohland, etc. ) probably do also.
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Yale
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Re: Maintenance

Post by Yale »

Cornelus,

How much is that Rolef's kit and does the engine have to be apart to install it?
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
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250GT
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Re: Maintenance

Post by 250GT »

Yale,
I wish I could tell .
But I got my first set in 1998 in an inside plug engine as test case.
in 2000 he made it in my daily outside plug engine .
I normally do not need to pay in cash ,because I do mostly part exchange.
thats how I do it almost since 30 years,
got my first F V12 at 24.
Next time I visit Piet R. I will ask.
You only need to take off the camcovers.
this upgrade was tested in the Ferrari Challange(GTO) and Tour Auto(Daytona), and did win everything.
Up to 9000rpm for SHORT time is really no problem.

So I think its the best you can buy.


mainetanance:
Ever time I take off the cam covers is a bit frustrating.
Normally the exhaust valves need some adjustment.
the inside valves are coold down by the cold fuel and need even in no tuned engines no new adjustment .
with this upgrade system I only need to replace the cover gasket

best

C.
250GT
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Re: Maintenance

Post by 250GT »

Correction to post above.
Daytona has nothing to do with this upgrade its an DOHC engine.

However nobody seams to notice !

I mixed it up due to the fact John Bosch( Daytona) and Kroymans GTO were prepaired at the same time.
sorry for the confusion.

some pic as compensation:

Oktober 2000

Cornelis.
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at Roelof´s okt 2000
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250GT
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Re: Maintenance

Post by 250GT »

front.
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Jim Wickstead
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Re: Maintenance

Post by Jim Wickstead »

Hi Tom,

It's taken me a while to get back to this, but I did contact Geof Ohland at PartSource regarding stainless steel valves and associated stem hardness. Geof states he has stainless steel valves in stock for virtually all the V12 engines and that their stem hardness is fully compatible with conventional valve adjustment screws and no lash cap is required. I have a pretty high regard for Geof so I will certainly consider this in 20 years when I redo my valves again.

Regarding the use of elephant feet adjusters for the single cam V12's, I have heard from a few sources that this change can be problematic. I think the issue is lack of lubrication at the ball joint where foot articulates onto stem. I understand the valve geometry and valve guide side wall scrub issues, but for me, these engines are historic and I will probably continue to work within the original engineering intent except for material upgrades which add durability.

Jim
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