Stamping a Label

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treue
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Stamping a Label

Post by treue » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:20 am

Can anyone suggest a place to have a metal label stamped with the proper information? Parker Hall will sell you an air cleaner tag and even the little rivets that hold it in place but they do not have the type no. or replacement cartridge no. stamped on them. Another example is the serial number plate on the firewall: that DEFINITELY needs to be done right. Another problem with the air cleaner tag is that one of the characters is a lower case "i". Also, the characters need to be properly spaced and in a straight line. A stamp set with the proper size numbers and uppercase and lowercase letters together with a holder that you would use once costs a small fortune.

(You can tell by my latest requests for help just where I am in the project. :P )

Tom
Tom Treue
67 330GT 2+2, No. 9129 (former owner)

Jumprun
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by Jumprun » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:31 am

I'm sorry I can't suggest a source to get it done but steel stamp sets are not usually expensive, the trick will be to find the right font, it looks like you need a star too, which is not so easy to find. I just looked at my serial number tag and it appears a stamp holder was used...very straight and evenly spaced characters. If you know the tricks and practice on some scrap aluminum you could DIY. If it comes to that, PM me for a few tips as this was one of the first skills I learned in the shop which was before Magnum PI did burnouts in his 308.

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330GT
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by 330GT » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:18 am

I stamped a S/N plate for my 250 coupe. See http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari/P ... NPlate.htm.

Since then, I stamped one for a 365 which required a star punch. Getting one made was not too expensive (under $100). One just had to provide an exact sized jpg and a stamp company will make one to match.

You might also see if an engraving company could do what you want for the air cleaner plate. Try a place that sells awards and trophies.
Regards, Kerry
http://www.330gt.com 330 GT Registry
http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari 250 PF Coupe 1643GT, 330 GT 2+2 8755GT, 308 GTS 23605

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tyang
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by tyang » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:27 pm

I have an engraver (Award and trophy shop) that does the engraving for me. His computer usually has the right fonts. He also has the data plate on file. There are subtle differences in these plates. some say made in Italy, and some say nothing.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

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330GT
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by 330GT » Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:13 pm

tyang wrote:I have an engraver (Award and trophy shop) that does the engraving for me. His computer usually has the right fonts. He also has the data plate on file. There are subtle differences in these plates. some say made in Italy, and some say nothing.

Tom
I've seen four different types. See http://www.330gt.com/Encyclopedia/Plates.htm for more3 information
Regards, Kerry
http://www.330gt.com 330 GT Registry
http://www.parrotbyte.com/kbc/ferrari 250 PF Coupe 1643GT, 330 GT 2+2 8755GT, 308 GTS 23605

kare
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by kare » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:39 am

My opinion is that serial number stampings should not and cannot be replaced. It is like replacing an old coin in your collection with something that you made up. When faking a serial number stamping (which is completely missing), it should be clearly documented that it is a reproduction. This is where even the factory is walking on very thin ice. I think it is a huge mistake that there are cases where original 50-60 year old stampings have been removed and substituted with something new because some pimple face in the office decided that the original workers made a mistake! That is not making it right, that is making it even more wrong.

My serial number tag looks awful. It was painted over and then cleaned with a steel brush when the number was not visible. But it's genuine original item and it is what it is. Even in 100% restoration I would not touch it.

Best wishes, Kare

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tyang
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by tyang » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:13 am

kare wrote:My opinion is that serial number stampings should not and cannot be replaced. It is like replacing an old coin in your collection with something that you made up. When faking a serial number stamping (which is completely missing), it should be clearly documented that it is a reproduction. This is where even the factory is walking on very thin ice. I think it is a huge mistake that there are cases where original 50-60 year old stampings have been removed and substituted with something new because some pimple face in the office decided that the original workers made a mistake! That is not making it right, that is making it even more wrong.

My serial number tag looks awful. It was painted over and then cleaned with a steel brush when the number was not visible. But it's genuine original item and it is what it is. Even in 100% restoration I would not touch it.

Best wishes, Kare
I couldn't agree with you more Kare, but in the case where the tag is completely missing, you do what you have to do.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

Timo
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by Timo » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:54 am

tyang wrote:in the case where the tag is completely missing, you do what you have to do.

Tom
In your (or others) opinion should that "what you have to do" include requesting a permission and/or purchase of the actual (stamped) replacement tag from Ferrari ? Just curious.
Timo

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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by 250GT » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:59 pm

The nice thing on this thread is that Tom "Treue" placed this question.
His name translated here means back to" faithful to the original"
We as NOT talking about stamping new number on a chassis or engine.
We are talking about removable parts with a stamped number.
If you goes Kare´s way, you cannot buy any part for your car,
Because it come probably from a parted out car.
We all must have a very much a bad conscience going this way.
So I think this attitude is a bit overdone.
I do not like to be the holly pope .
sorry….

best

C.

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tyang
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by tyang » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:18 am

Timo wrote:
tyang wrote:in the case where the tag is completely missing, you do what you have to do.

Tom
In your (or others) opinion should that "what you have to do" include requesting a permission and/or purchase of the actual (stamped) replacement tag from Ferrari ? Just curious.
This can open a quite a heated discussion from this response, but "requesting permission" from Ferrari for a stamped tag seems a little extreme. Ferrari uses vendors to recreate these tags just like the rest of us, but I'm sure will charge quite a lot more for their "blessing." (Don't get me started about getting Ferrari's blessing and the Classique issue) Like Cornelis said, we're not changing numbers. If the tag is missing, or damaged beyond recognition, I don't see why a reproduction can't be used, but this is my opinion, and everyone can do as they see fit. If you don't agree, that's O.K.

Tom
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by Timo » Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:29 am

tyang wrote:
Timo wrote:
tyang wrote:in the case where the tag is completely missing, you do what you have to do.

Tom
In your (or others) opinion should that "what you have to do" include requesting a permission and/or purchase of the actual (stamped) replacement tag from Ferrari ? Just curious.
This can open a quite a heated discussion from this response, but "requesting permission" from Ferrari for a stamped tag seems a little extreme. Ferrari uses vendors to recreate these tags just like the rest of us, but I'm sure will charge quite a lot more for their "blessing." (Don't get me started about getting Ferrari's blessing and the Classique issue) Like Cornelis said, we're not changing numbers. If the tag is missing, or damaged beyond recognition, I don't see why a reproduction can't be used, but this is my opinion, and everyone can do as they see fit. If you don't agree, that's O.K.

Tom
Thanks Tom. As I was trying to indicate I was just curious to find out yours and other members view regarding this issue, which I'm sure we all can agree to be "hot button" for most, but also somewhat slippery slope.
For example, how can one be sure if one is attempting to buy a car with reproduction tag that was replaced due to original actually being missing or for perhaps more sinister, undisclosed reasons ?
Should we expect a legal affidavit or similar documentation from previous owner or restorer who replaced it attesting it was for legitimate reasons "x,y or z" and/or if the original tag exists, even in very rough condition, would be reasonable to expect it to accompany the car every time ownership change takes place ? Again, just curious and personally believe these types of issues should be kept open (in civil manner) by/for any one with concerns of authenticity, history and legitimacy of any and all vintage cars (unlike certain "Factory" sponsored programs ;-)
I'm sure many or most of us have heard of, read of or seen cars "rebuilt" around chassis sections, "V.I.N" tags or other "storied" components, right ?
Timo

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tyang
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by tyang » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:59 am

Hi Timo,

IMHO, the data plate correlates with engine and chassis stamp, so replacing the plate because it was missing or damaged beyond repair isn't changing anything. The car is still as it is represented. If you change the numbers on the data plate, then that is another issue.

It is a slippery slope, and there is evidence all around of deception back in the day. Some of this done by people still around today! I have no intention of calling out all the intentional, or unintentional wrong doing that has or is done. It's good to know it exists, and for all of us to tread carefully. As the prices continue to rise, and new people come into the market everyday, I try my best to do the right thing by guiding those that will listen!

Those that want to deceive will continue to do it (and not tell anyone), and those that are honest will do what's right. Disclosing a change by and honest shop will not change the deception from another hand. It's up to the buyer to figure out who to trust.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

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Tom Wilson
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by Tom Wilson » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:17 pm

I would hope that an honest person would include the old ID plate in the sale if it exists, along with any other old parts, manuals and tools. However, the first plate is missing and a new one has been made, you can check it against the chassis number and engine number. If there is still a question about the body being correct despite a correct looking ID plate, you can always check the Pininfarina ID number, which is written and stamped upon many of the body parts. I have the list of PF numbers vrs. Ferrari numbers and am happy to confirm them.

Be careful with the chalk numbers on the back of leather parts however, as I have seen some who's PF number indicates that they were intended for another car (mine, for instance). This appears to have been done at the factory and would make sense as the leather pieces would be more easily interchanged than say, a door.
Tom Wilson - Series III 250 GTE, SN 4247 GT
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treue
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by treue » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:00 am

(Picture me blowing a whistle) Pheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!

My actual problem is stamping a Parker Hall air cleaner label. I was just using the serial number plate as an example; my serial number plate is in perfect condition, thank you very much. I would rather send the plate and $50 or so to one of TY's shops, than buy a large stamp set for $600 then booger it up anyway. Interesting development in the thread, though.

Thanks for the comment, Cornelis. Indeed, my family is from Germany (In German, my name is pronounced: TROY-uh. We have come to pronounce it TROO-ee.). My late father was the only one born in the US. All of my five aunts were born in Germany. In the 19th century. And I HAVE tried to keep my car as original as possible even going from the red/black as-received to the original silver/blue.

Thanks for all the thoughts, guys.


Tom
Tom Treue
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Re: Stamping a Label

Post by 8339 » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:14 am

I'm reluctantly jumping in here, but here goes. Check out the Superior Steel Stamp Company of Cleveland Ohio. This company may have made the original stamps for most of the car companies out there. I've seen a set of stamps for Alfas that are absolutely spot on, fonts, stars and all. If you can make a pencil rubbing and send them to the company they will send you what you need. These are not cheap as they are made industrial use.

Superior Steel Stamp Co.
1242 E. 49th Street
Cleveland, Ohio
216-431-6460

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