Hi all,
I must warn that this may be a long post.
In the back of my mind I've always wanted a Ferrari but it wasn't until I attended the Concourso, Pebble Beach, and Laguna Seca this last year that I began to seriously look into the possibility. After many, many hours on the web, I have settled on the 250 and 330 series for various reasons. I want, and will likely pay for the well documented, well kept, as few owners as possible car. I do not want a project. Having said all this, I have driven only one car and that's the one listed at Symbolic.
*I may go this weekend to LA and look at the 4HL at Heritage. From the registry it looks to have bounced around quite a bit. And by the way, the 250 they have has " gone back to the shop for work". It may have been sold and come back. If anyone wants I can confirm this If I make it there next weekend.*
*I saw the 330GTC if anyone wants a novice opinion.*
#9387 looks great, I think. It has what seems to be decent history with documention as listed on the web site. It does not have tools or books, which is interesting given the detail to which it supposedly has been maintained. Perhaps they got "lost" between the transport truck and the showroom. The engine has not been opened, and at 67,000km I am concerned about facing a rebuild. There is a clunking coming from the rear that can be heard intermitently when slowing to a stop. It has some blueish smoke out the right side. It has not been driven reguarly. It's not one of those just finished a 1,000 mile trip w/o problems but I did take it for 75 miles or so of stop and go traffic as well as freeway driving. Of course I was too excited driving it to pay attention to everything like water temp at idle but oil temp took a loooong time to warm up and never seemed to go too high. Had one restoration in late 80's with a paint job switch from original blue to red. I am dealing with Graham and Sean.
So, the wind up. As you can see I've done my research but I lack the experience to pull it all together for an informed opinion. It was such a blast to drive if it were 45Kish I would have bought on the spot. It was so much fun to drive that my friend who came along is as we speak on the web learning all he can so he can find one for himself! They are asking 59K and have indicated they feel it is "priced right or pretty close". The black one they had sold for 65K from what I've read on the web. Didn't see it so I can't compare but it seems a little high for a 330. At least according to FML average of $45k. Yes, I know what average means. The car is being billed as "original" unmolested" etc. Please do share thoughts, opinions etc. On wed 1/14 I am going to Symbolic's repair facility to put it up on a rack and go over it with Daryl the garage mgr(?).
Please give me a name and number of someone I can use for a PPI or someone who knows enough but maybe isn't qualified as a PPI'er who wants to look at it with me and can help.
Thanks a bunch and don't be surprised to see this same post elswhere like Fchat.
Rob
330GT #9387 @ Symbolic test drive last Sat looking for help
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robsandiego
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: San Diego, CA
"Original and unmolested" can mean a lot of different things, and not all of them are good. For example, it can be a fancy way of saying that needed maintenance has never been done. If you are looking for a car that has been well cared for and all the major stuff taken care of, keep looking. This one has way too many question marks in my book, and the absence of documentation reinforces that impression. If you were a mechanic and planned to do the work yourself, maybe it would be a different story.
I'm much like you -- I'd rather pay more for a car that's been well-maintained and shows it. Keep looking. A better car ALWAYS comes along - often for less money!
Andy
I'm much like you -- I'd rather pay more for a car that's been well-maintained and shows it. Keep looking. A better car ALWAYS comes along - often for less money!
Andy
Hi Rob,
67000 Km miles is about 40K miles. Ferrari valve guides tend to need replacing by 50K miles. Some people have gotten more mileage on their engines, but on average, they last about 50K miles. With the modern materials, they will last longer than their original guides.
I wouldn't spend that kind of money without making sure I had a serious PPI by a THIRD PARTY mechanic!
Tom
67000 Km miles is about 40K miles. Ferrari valve guides tend to need replacing by 50K miles. Some people have gotten more mileage on their engines, but on average, they last about 50K miles. With the modern materials, they will last longer than their original guides.
I wouldn't spend that kind of money without making sure I had a serious PPI by a THIRD PARTY mechanic!
Tom
The serial number he stated is for the GTC.bluecat49 wrote:Rob:
I'm confused. Which car are you interested in, the 330GTC or the 330 2+2?
Which one did you drive per your post?
What are the respective prices for these cars?
Tom,
How much does it cost (or how many hours does it take) to replace valve guides?
Thanks,
--Matt
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robsandiego
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: San Diego, CA
All the input is much appreciated!
Let me clear a few things up. I was a little tired last night so I think I may have been confusing things. Certainly the s/n. The 330GT in question which I DID drive is #9673. Sorry! The GTC is #9387.
Next, I didn't mean to imply that the car had no work done or didn't have records. It had been "restored" in the late 80's. It looks like "major stuff" has been done but the recods are not complete so I don't know exactly what has been done. Restored may be different from replaced with new?
And Matt, yes I was thinking valve guides but I seem to recall an article By Sheehan that told a story of starting with valve guides and it turned into a "well, we're in here so why not do this and that" scenario. It became a question of $15K or live with the smoke.
In any event I will see the car again tomorrow and have contacted Gary Bobileff to perform a PPI as per the suggestion of others.
Rob
Let me clear a few things up. I was a little tired last night so I think I may have been confusing things. Certainly the s/n. The 330GT in question which I DID drive is #9673. Sorry! The GTC is #9387.
Next, I didn't mean to imply that the car had no work done or didn't have records. It had been "restored" in the late 80's. It looks like "major stuff" has been done but the recods are not complete so I don't know exactly what has been done. Restored may be different from replaced with new?
And Matt, yes I was thinking valve guides but I seem to recall an article By Sheehan that told a story of starting with valve guides and it turned into a "well, we're in here so why not do this and that" scenario. It became a question of $15K or live with the smoke.
In any event I will see the car again tomorrow and have contacted Gary Bobileff to perform a PPI as per the suggestion of others.
Rob
To me that seems like a lot of cabbage for a car thats been sitting around alot. Since somethings bound to go wrong as soon as you get it home, you can add 10-15K to the purchase price for that stuff. Let us know if you buy it...I'll show the post to my wife as proof that my 330 is not the gasoline-smelling money pit that she thinks it is (see..its an appreciating asset...even if I deduct 5K for each extra headlight).
Hi Matt,
http://www.tomyang.net/cars/headpuller.htm
New guides should get new valves, or at least the old ones fitted to the new guides. The valves also need to be lapped to the valve seats. worn roller followers should be replaced, along with the worn tappets. No expense spared rebuilds would just have you buy everything new, from valves, roller followers, tappets, and then there's the issue with the head studs...
Short answer? More than $2K, less than $15K!
Tom
Not an easy answer. Worn guides require the heads to be removed. Sometimes they get stuck, and require more time and a head puller to take off.How much does it cost (or how many hours does it take) to replace valve guides?
http://www.tomyang.net/cars/headpuller.htm
New guides should get new valves, or at least the old ones fitted to the new guides. The valves also need to be lapped to the valve seats. worn roller followers should be replaced, along with the worn tappets. No expense spared rebuilds would just have you buy everything new, from valves, roller followers, tappets, and then there's the issue with the head studs...
Short answer? More than $2K, less than $15K!
Tom
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David Smith
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 10:49 pm
- Location: Valparaiso, IN
And while you are stripped apart you might as well check the bearings and the rest of the bottom end. Water pump, oil pump and new clutch also. With all this done you have to do the carbs to fix the air leaks and rebuild the distributors. Now we are getting close to $25,000 but you will never have to do it again.
Thanks, Tom, for a straightforward an honest answer to my very open ended question. It's sort of like asking "How long's a rope?"
Rob, could you tell a little more about your test drive of 9673? Especially now that you've had time to reflect on it?
And 858 945 0749 is indeed the phone number for Symbolic.
Rob, could you tell a little more about your test drive of 9673? Especially now that you've had time to reflect on it?
And 858 945 0749 is indeed the phone number for Symbolic.
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robsandiego
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: San Diego, CA
330GT #9387 @ Symbolic test drive UPDATE
An update.
Sorry for going quiet but I felt that until I had made a decision one way or the other I shouldn't air my laundry at your expense or that of others involved who don't have the opportunity to tell their side of the story. Much has transpired as you can imagine in the purchase of 37yr old car. Below is a brief summary.
Graham and Sean at Symbolic have been great. As I said above, they gave me the car for a few hours one day and I had a blast. Following that I met Daryl, the race and restoration mgr, and one of their service guys, Joe I think, and put the car up on the lift at their service shop. While there, I saw the black 330 they sold a month earlier. It was cosmetically in better shape than the subject car.
I did however ultimately bring the car in question to Gary Bobileff for a PPI. Thanks for the heads up on him. He is very detail oriented which I liked. Many of the items he found I could live with. I wanted to know as much as possible and then decide what was important. By the way, he had an impecable Lambo 400? that he restored and has been featured in the Robb Report. My jaw still hurts from hitting the floor. Beautifull car is an understatement! Anyhow, the 330 had two items that gave me reason to pause. One was the smoke and the other was the front end work needed. If you REALLY need details email me as I prefer not to go into them here. Gary did pronounce the car to be "decent" overall but I needed to do some more homework.
I went to LA and drove the 4HL at Heritage. Didn't like it at all. 15K less in asking price but no comparision. Except, it had no smoke but very low compression readings. Back to Symbolic. Called other mechanics, exchanged several emails with prior owner. Friday afternoon Graham and I talk about my concerns and he says he will have his guys look at the car.
He called a short while ago to tell me it sold today. Yes, I'm dissapointed because the car was nice. If it were smoke free I would have gone for it. I just couldn't see past the possible need for major$$ engine work at a later date.
The wrap up is I woud again deal with Symbolic as they have really been accommodating. Gary did a visual on another 330 for me and so I have that to pursue. Details forthcoming as time permits.
Rob
Sorry for going quiet but I felt that until I had made a decision one way or the other I shouldn't air my laundry at your expense or that of others involved who don't have the opportunity to tell their side of the story. Much has transpired as you can imagine in the purchase of 37yr old car. Below is a brief summary.
Graham and Sean at Symbolic have been great. As I said above, they gave me the car for a few hours one day and I had a blast. Following that I met Daryl, the race and restoration mgr, and one of their service guys, Joe I think, and put the car up on the lift at their service shop. While there, I saw the black 330 they sold a month earlier. It was cosmetically in better shape than the subject car.
I did however ultimately bring the car in question to Gary Bobileff for a PPI. Thanks for the heads up on him. He is very detail oriented which I liked. Many of the items he found I could live with. I wanted to know as much as possible and then decide what was important. By the way, he had an impecable Lambo 400? that he restored and has been featured in the Robb Report. My jaw still hurts from hitting the floor. Beautifull car is an understatement! Anyhow, the 330 had two items that gave me reason to pause. One was the smoke and the other was the front end work needed. If you REALLY need details email me as I prefer not to go into them here. Gary did pronounce the car to be "decent" overall but I needed to do some more homework.
I went to LA and drove the 4HL at Heritage. Didn't like it at all. 15K less in asking price but no comparision. Except, it had no smoke but very low compression readings. Back to Symbolic. Called other mechanics, exchanged several emails with prior owner. Friday afternoon Graham and I talk about my concerns and he says he will have his guys look at the car.
He called a short while ago to tell me it sold today. Yes, I'm dissapointed because the car was nice. If it were smoke free I would have gone for it. I just couldn't see past the possible need for major$$ engine work at a later date.
The wrap up is I woud again deal with Symbolic as they have really been accommodating. Gary did a visual on another 330 for me and so I have that to pursue. Details forthcoming as time permits.
Rob