Greetings.
I've been reading the site for years, and I've been very happy to see all the attention being given to the classic 2+2 V12 family. I currently run a 328, but have been thinking about adding a V12 to the stable.
At the local Fcar repair facility there is a white 365 GTC/4 that has just been pulled out of storage. It's been sitting since 1982 at least and has almost 83000 miles on it. Apparently it starts, but needs mechanical attention almost everywhere. The body is rough, in that there are chips, cracks, scuffs, the grill is missing (the rubber bumper is still there), the gaskets around the windows are dried out, etc. There does not seem to be major rust problems or major accident damage, although it seems to have been off road at least once based on some front underside damage. The interior is very obviously original and thus has what might politely be termed "a patina." The glass is all present and seems good.
From what I understand, the owner passed on a six figure offer in the 80s boom, and now is looking to sell the car.
From browsing the web, it seems that very nice GTC/4s are in the 50s, does that sound about right? If so, is there any point in trying to low-ball into this car? Where would you all put the value of the car as it sits? I'd half-tempted to offer $15-20K and start tearing it apart.
Any advise is appreciated. Thanks!
Lurker intro and a GTC/4 value question
Tillman,
This sounds like a fun project, but it depends on what you want out of the car. If you want something fun to tear apart and play with in the garage in your spare time for the next few years, go for it. Especially since you already have a 328 (nice 328 by the way).
If you want a cheap way into a vintage V12, forget it.
The price seems reasonable from a buyers perspective (as long as you are doing it for fun not profit) but an owner who was offered 6 figures, even a long time ago, may have difficulty selling it that cheaply.
Regards,
Art S. (formerly potential parts car 7919)
This sounds like a fun project, but it depends on what you want out of the car. If you want something fun to tear apart and play with in the garage in your spare time for the next few years, go for it. Especially since you already have a 328 (nice 328 by the way).
If you want a cheap way into a vintage V12, forget it.
The price seems reasonable from a buyers perspective (as long as you are doing it for fun not profit) but an owner who was offered 6 figures, even a long time ago, may have difficulty selling it that cheaply.
Regards,
Art S. (formerly potential parts car 7919)
Thanks for the feedback.
As far as skills go, I'm a decent guy with a wrench, decently skilled with the electronics (I work on pinball machines as another hobby), and don't have any skillset yet with paint&body. I do have a friend that owns a body shop and would probably let me hang there on the weekends as unpaid gopher to learn. I document things well, so I usually get things back together with no parts left over :)
The car really is too nice for a parts car, but needs a lot of work to be a driver. A lot of these were restored in the 80s, and so this car's competition in the marketplace is with relatively inexpensive cars in much better condition. Any realist would pass on it, knowing that you're upside down as soon as you start.
I just hate to see any vintage Fcar deteriorate, and all that's likely to happen to this car is that it's passed from dealer to dealer via auctions and never really hits the street again. Honestly, though, if I bought it the car will likely sit in my garage for years and may never see the road again either. Too much going on and not enough time...
I may still make a stupidly low offer and see what happens. I don't know that it can be had at 15-20K, but that's all that makes sense from a buyer's viewpoint.
As far as skills go, I'm a decent guy with a wrench, decently skilled with the electronics (I work on pinball machines as another hobby), and don't have any skillset yet with paint&body. I do have a friend that owns a body shop and would probably let me hang there on the weekends as unpaid gopher to learn. I document things well, so I usually get things back together with no parts left over :)
The car really is too nice for a parts car, but needs a lot of work to be a driver. A lot of these were restored in the 80s, and so this car's competition in the marketplace is with relatively inexpensive cars in much better condition. Any realist would pass on it, knowing that you're upside down as soon as you start.
I just hate to see any vintage Fcar deteriorate, and all that's likely to happen to this car is that it's passed from dealer to dealer via auctions and never really hits the street again. Honestly, though, if I bought it the car will likely sit in my garage for years and may never see the road again either. Too much going on and not enough time...
I may still make a stupidly low offer and see what happens. I don't know that it can be had at 15-20K, but that's all that makes sense from a buyer's viewpoint.
Do it because you love it, or else you'll never reap the rewards of this car.
Although we can all agree that this car is worth less than $15K to someone who wants to restore it, it's worth more to someone who will part it out. These cars end up with the higher bidder, and usually that means the end of the road!
Good luck, and let us know what happens!
Tom
Although we can all agree that this car is worth less than $15K to someone who wants to restore it, it's worth more to someone who will part it out. These cars end up with the higher bidder, and usually that means the end of the road!
Good luck, and let us know what happens!
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Forget it now, before its too late!!! I'm not trying to discourage anyone from following their dream, all the owners here did, but unless you've got the big bucks to sink into a professional resto (dubious value on this model) and/or the advanced mechanical skills, equipment, and time, make it easy on yourself. Get organized, with an idea of what you want to own, spend, do yourself or have others do and start looking, with the realization that all your assumptions will be severely tested. Give it a year if you have to. There are lots of cars out there, you just have to dig them out. Buying an up and running vintage car and doing whatever is needed is effort and $$ enough, but at least you can drive it!
Also, stay on this board - this is where you will find the real info from real vintage owners.
Also, stay on this board - this is where you will find the real info from real vintage owners.
mine
oh goody,OPINION TIME!
(solicited no less)
naturally, I have one
Welcome to the Light, mr Tillman!
as Art mentioned
there is no such thing as a cheap Ferrari
and that especially holds true for a Vintage V12
the cheaper ones usually turn out to be more expensive
in the long run
that said
I have sunk a great deal of time and money
into my present project (with no end in sight)
which being an even less desireable model (400i)
than the GTC/4
I have no hope of ever coming close to breaking even
(I was aware of this going in, however)
the experience and knowledge that I am gaining,
however, is priceless IMHO
there also is the added satisfaction in knowing
that everything was done correctly
(as well as earning some bragging rights)
any weenie can write a Check
but how many can check the Valve Lash
choosing a car needing some work
(OK a LOT of work)
in my case has proved to be of value
not to mention that I am making all of my 'rookie mistakes'
on this one
some of which would be tragic on a real nice car
but are no big deal on my car
when the time comes to move up
(365 GT 2+2?)
I will be ready.
would I do it all over again?
yes
would I do it differently?
yes:
I would choose a car
that had no rust, nicer paint, and a better interior
so that when I was done with the mechanicals
the value would be there
if I wanted this to be profitable
I would clone a 69 Z28 or something
this is done from the heart
PS I really like the GTC/4 BTW
very cool looking
and quite comfortable
for us 6+ footers
(solicited no less)
naturally, I have one
Welcome to the Light, mr Tillman!
as Art mentioned
there is no such thing as a cheap Ferrari
and that especially holds true for a Vintage V12
the cheaper ones usually turn out to be more expensive
in the long run
that said
I have sunk a great deal of time and money
into my present project (with no end in sight)
which being an even less desireable model (400i)
than the GTC/4
I have no hope of ever coming close to breaking even
(I was aware of this going in, however)
the experience and knowledge that I am gaining,
however, is priceless IMHO
there also is the added satisfaction in knowing
that everything was done correctly
(as well as earning some bragging rights)
any weenie can write a Check
but how many can check the Valve Lash
choosing a car needing some work
(OK a LOT of work)
in my case has proved to be of value
not to mention that I am making all of my 'rookie mistakes'
on this one
some of which would be tragic on a real nice car
but are no big deal on my car
when the time comes to move up
(365 GT 2+2?)
I will be ready.
would I do it all over again?
yes
would I do it differently?
yes:
I would choose a car
that had no rust, nicer paint, and a better interior
so that when I was done with the mechanicals
the value would be there
if I wanted this to be profitable
I would clone a 69 Z28 or something
this is done from the heart
PS I really like the GTC/4 BTW
very cool looking
and quite comfortable
for us 6+ footers
-
Dr. Ian Levy
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 1:16 pm
- Location: United Kingdom
- Contact:
Lurker intro and a GTC/4 value question
Hello Tillman
I am 4 years into a GTC 4 restoration & it is a real labour of love. As the guys have said profit is something other people make & this old Ferrari won't make you any.
The experience in all aspects is priceless & the guys you meet & talk to reveal that a common insanity exists. If yuo love the cars & want to fix one -go for it with your eyes wide open.
If not I need the front bumper & the stainless windshield trim
Regards
Ian L
England
UK
I am 4 years into a GTC 4 restoration & it is a real labour of love. As the guys have said profit is something other people make & this old Ferrari won't make you any.
The experience in all aspects is priceless & the guys you meet & talk to reveal that a common insanity exists. If yuo love the cars & want to fix one -go for it with your eyes wide open.
If not I need the front bumper & the stainless windshield trim
Regards
Ian L
England
UK
Welcome to the Forum. Your heart sounds like it's in the right place, now you need to get a realistic idea of the project. If you tell this Forum where that GTC/4 is located we may be able to direct you to a local qualified Ferrari mechanic to check out the car. They may help give you a realistic view on the viability of the project, from multiple perspectives, i.e., total and type of work required to return to road worthiness, your skill sets, and, ugh, $$,$$$ . This forum is a helpful group, so let us know. Jack Horner
Jack Horner, 1966 330 GT 2+2 Series II, s/n 8325 (x-1981 Mondial 8, s/n 36213)
I would love to see a white C4 at Concorso in a few years. The color and the shape are very...counterculture.... And no street Ferrari sounds as good as a C4. I have driven Lussos, Testarossas, 360s with Tubi, and in order to get close, you would have to acquire the early testarossa race car. An aural symphony like no other.
Of course it is cheaper to get a fully sorted one than to buy a basket case. The guy would have to give you money for you to come ahead if you have to wake up all the major stuff and bring the cosmetics up to a concours level.
But....you are correct, I would pay tops $25K, and then you could bring it up to a 3- level driver without getting a home equity line of credit.
Do I ever follow this advice? Of course not ! I bought my GTE after it sat for 5 years. I got lucky and only had to wake up the brakes, the fuel system, and in the 2.5 years only the OD failed (got lucky there, too, in terms of expense).
Do it because it is cheaper than crack or a mistress. Don't do it to get ahead financially (don't ever add up all your bills).
You sound like a true enthusiast, so I know you will do the right thing.
:)
thx
luke
4823 250 GTE
Of course it is cheaper to get a fully sorted one than to buy a basket case. The guy would have to give you money for you to come ahead if you have to wake up all the major stuff and bring the cosmetics up to a concours level.
But....you are correct, I would pay tops $25K, and then you could bring it up to a 3- level driver without getting a home equity line of credit.
Do I ever follow this advice? Of course not ! I bought my GTE after it sat for 5 years. I got lucky and only had to wake up the brakes, the fuel system, and in the 2.5 years only the OD failed (got lucky there, too, in terms of expense).
Do it because it is cheaper than crack or a mistress. Don't do it to get ahead financially (don't ever add up all your bills).
You sound like a true enthusiast, so I know you will do the right thing.
:)
thx
luke
4823 250 GTE
Ex 1963 Ferrari 250 GTE, 99 Modena 360, 11 Maserati QPorte S, 08 merc gl550, 67 Cadillac Coupe DeVille Convertible, 2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, 2006 MV Agusta Brutale S, 1991 Ducati 907i.e.
Tillman
From your description of the car's condition, mileage and 20+ year storage status, you are looking at significant dollars to get the car road worthy and into respectable driver status, not to mention additional costs if you were to bring it up to show status.
For starters, engine rebuild ($20K), interior ($7-10K?), body and paint work, assuming no major rust issues ($5-8K) and already you might spend $38K in the blink of an eye before touching the suspension (including the hydraulic self-leveling rear suspension), transmission, differential, brakes, tires, etc. etc.
So, if your primary objective is enjoyment from the restoration of the car without regard to whether or not the end product will cost less in money and time than buying the best example on the market (it will cost you more of both), then this car seems like a reasonable candidate.
If you are looking to achieve a good to high quality car for less than the cost of buying one already done, then even free might be too much to pay to get into this project.
Thankfully, there are enough people in the world who do have the passion to take the restoration route even though it may not make economic sense to do so. If there weren't, we would be losing these wonderful cars to being parted out even more quickly than we are.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
John
From your description of the car's condition, mileage and 20+ year storage status, you are looking at significant dollars to get the car road worthy and into respectable driver status, not to mention additional costs if you were to bring it up to show status.
For starters, engine rebuild ($20K), interior ($7-10K?), body and paint work, assuming no major rust issues ($5-8K) and already you might spend $38K in the blink of an eye before touching the suspension (including the hydraulic self-leveling rear suspension), transmission, differential, brakes, tires, etc. etc.
So, if your primary objective is enjoyment from the restoration of the car without regard to whether or not the end product will cost less in money and time than buying the best example on the market (it will cost you more of both), then this car seems like a reasonable candidate.
If you are looking to achieve a good to high quality car for less than the cost of buying one already done, then even free might be too much to pay to get into this project.
Thankfully, there are enough people in the world who do have the passion to take the restoration route even though it may not make economic sense to do so. If there weren't, we would be losing these wonderful cars to being parted out even more quickly than we are.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
John
John Ashburne
1983 400i 5 speed, silver/black
1983 400i 5 speed, silver/black
Thanks for all the feedback.
After some long thought, I decided that I should pass on this one. I think I'll just wait several years and then add the 330 GT 2+2 that I really want to the stable.
The machine is over at Norwood Performance, and if anyone is seriously interested I'm sure they can put you in touch with the owner.
T
After some long thought, I decided that I should pass on this one. I think I'll just wait several years and then add the 330 GT 2+2 that I really want to the stable.
The machine is over at Norwood Performance, and if anyone is seriously interested I'm sure they can put you in touch with the owner.
T