Reliability

[Yale]

I was talking to Tom this week about how all our East Coast 2+2's are in a state of disrepair at the very same time. Tom pointed this out as a sign of the complexity and unreliability of our cars. And I, in the driving across country mind set, wondered if these cars were really so unreliable or was it just circumstance that so many are laid up at the same time. Tom said, "Look my 1965 Mustang, which I barely use or work on, is almost always ready to drive when I want to." (I chuck this in for all you, "Its an old car what do you expect" people.) "Ferraris are just more complicated, continues Tom, and need a lot more attention."

However I still feel for the most part the issues I have had are -- new to me car -- situations. Like I need Ken Lowe fans to keep the car cool in modern traffic. Or I can't use wire wheels in NYC because the streets are too rough and I need to change over to the mag wheels. Other trouble I have had, vapour lock, leaky radiator, etc., are not to me signs of the cars weakness. Hell back in the day I don't think if you owned a Ferrari that you would have been afraid to drive across Europe in it. And I have driven all over NY State, Vermont, N.J. and Pennsylvania with nary a dose see doe from the car.

Brethren what say yee?

Yale

[tyang]

In our conversation, Yale wanted to know why then were Ferraris considered durable in races. I reminded him that most race cars are rebuilt before and after a race, and the Ferraris were considered reliable compared to the oter cars. I believe the same goes for a street driven Ferrari. If all the mechanicals are well taken care of, it can be a very reliable car, but there are many things that can be overlooked.

Tom

[John Vardanian]

Ferrari engines were designed to run hard for long periods of time, as is the case with European endurance races. So, a road car should at least cruise across a state or two without any problems. But, remeber when the factory cars ran those harsh long distance races, the cars were maintained fastidiously by expert factory mechanics. Now, if I were to go and buy a generally unloved-model, vintage Ferrari off Ebay today, I would be a fool to think that the car can go hundreds of miles like an Avis rent-a-car. But if I were to take the same unloved, maintenance-starved car and thoroughly sort it out and then maintain it like it was meant to be maintained, then there is no reason why it can't go coast to coast without any real trouble.

The only time I really drive my PF Coupe is on vacations and overnight trips, but I am yet to have a single mishap. Furthermore, overheating is synonymous with Jaguars not Ferraris. Last August entering Concorso I was in crawling traffic for nearly an hour and while the Panteras were cooking my old car was just begining to get a little warmer than usual.

Comaring a Mustang with a Ferrari is like comparing a Timex with a Rolex. They both tell time but that's the only thing they have in common.

john

[David Booth]

Can't agree with Tom on this one. Assuming they're in a decent state of tune and not radically under-maintained, vintage Ferraris of my acquaintance are far less finicky than contemporary machinery and I always figured it was due to their generally over-engineered approach to every aspect of the cars.

This approach comes, of course, from the company's long association with motor racing and is truly one of the few instances where it can be said "racing improves the breed".

Ask Francois if you get the chance, Tom, but I think that in the late 1950s to the mid 1960s when our cars were being produced, that the practice of rebuilding engines before and after every race had yet to come into being. Engines and even tires were expected to last several races, I believe.

I think John's dead-on with his comment about how so many of the older cars have gone through their respective periods of being unloved and need a lot to be set right. Once they're returned to good running condition, my experience says they don't need a lot of fettling to stay there, and will withstand a lot more neglect than other cars of the era. I can tell you some real horror stories about the Lotus 907 motor, the big Healey sixes and even the great Jaguar twincam six.

[Michael Bayer]

I respectfully disagree with Tom on this, once these cars are sorted out and driven regularly, they are as reliable as any. There is far less to go wrong than a modern car stuffed with electronics. Example: I have a 5 year old E320 Mercedes that is stuffed with gadgets, failing at the rate of $1500 per year. When it gets the sniffles, I am stumped, and its off to the computer repair guy at the MB dealer. It is also useful to consider what sorting out entails, any car needs some percent of its value reinvested each year in maintaining its systems over time, say 7-8%. Over 35-40 years thats a lot of work, most of that ongoing refresh was forgone by current owners, passing the unpaid bill to the next owner. Therfe is a tendancy to include the hours and dollas spent on cosmetics in the general catagory of sorting out. Aging aircrafy and automobiles fail in predictable ways, thus preventave maintaince can entain premptive work on those items past their useful life. The old MBs came with maintainence schedules into the hundreds of thousands of miles. We are in new territory as we drive our wonderful cars well beyond the horizions of maintaince that Enzo's boys detailed in the manuals. Like the Air Force B52 crews once they rewrote ther maintaince manuals, they discovered thay can fly those planes built in the very early 50s (engines too) until 2040! The morning of the Reading Concurs 350 miles round trip, I checked the fluids and started off, while I do pack real tools and "fix it bits" I honestly never worry about breakdowns. Michael Bayer 330Gt #9727

[horner]

I think that these cars are very durable. Think of the neglect that some endured and yet they are still repairable and drivable. There appears to be a good percentage still on the road, compared to most Detroit iron that suffered the same. I think that the latter would be in the crusher by now.

NYC is probably not a good metric for any automobile. These are Grand Touring cars, high speed open road machines. NYC's wire wheel-bending sink holes are not the environment for which they were built. In 2 weeks of touring northern Italy, including city centers, we never encountered roads the poor likes of which we find here in the States. Build big roads, yes, but for a car crazy society we spend far too little on maintenance.

When my car is returned next week from repairs not of its fault, I plan a few excursions, though not cross-country. The repairs I made in the past 3 years on a 37 year old car are mostly of the long-term variety: suspension bushings, tie rods, water pump, exhaust system, headlamps, alternator & voltage regulator, etc. The car should be "good to go."

[tyang]

Hi All,

I DO believe Ferraris can be reliable, as long as the owner takes the time to make sure it's well sorted. Rebuilding the engines may not have happened with the customer cars, but I will confirm with Francois what the factory did with their GP cars.

The deferred maintenance is what I am concerned about when talking about reliability. For instance, Yale and I were going over a point list on his car, and I asked him about his fuel tank, and if he knew if it had ever been out. Clogged fuel filters and carb jets can spoil the trip if the tank proves rusty.

Yale has been pretty diligent in fixing his car, and it's pretty reliable, but there can still be things that will arise!

Tom

[fuiszt]

I think the basic car is pretty tough actually. I've never been stranded by my Ferrari, and it has ALWAYS started when I've turned the key. Thats more than I can say about porsches, austin healeys, triumphs, jags etc I've had in the past.
I would give my car a break on the things that have gone wrong or needed repair-they would be expected things on any 40 year old car. Getting them fixed is a little tougher than a mustang though, and I'm pretty sure that the busted synchro (and hopefully nothing else in the gearbox!) is the result of a young mechanic/helper that never drove an old standard shift car.
Still, when I drive it long distances, I tend to take a circular route. The idea of leaving the car somewhere rough while I figure out how to get it home is the kind of thing that would give me an ulcer. And we don't have a Francois here (or at least I don't- MR Marriot probably does)

[Art S.]

I agree with the majority on this one.

As one of the people with a car that lives in shops I still feel that Ferraris do not have inherent reliability issues if properly maintained. However, most have spent numerous years being under maintained and we are paying the price. I make one general exception, the electrics, and clocks in particular are not very good.

The issue is magnified by what is involved in maintaining a vintage handmade car vs. a mass produced car. If a part fails you usually have to fix it or make your own. My car has been growing roots in Francois shop not because of Francois but because my brake calipers are taking forever to be rebuilt. If I had a Mustang, I could buy these parts new or buy rebuilt ones with a core exchange. If parts sourcing for mechanical components of a 60's American car took more than a week I would be upset.

Regards,

Art S.

[Art S.]

Wow,

Busy day! 3 additional responses while I was typing.

Art S.

[buddy]

when I bought my car three and a half years ago I changed the fluids and checked the usual stuff and drove it from Palm Beach fl. to algar in pa. non stop for 15 1/2 hours . this was before anything was sorted out . I think they are tough old workhorses and are as good as their maintenance once sorted. buddy #9667

[fest]

a few thoughts:

I agree that the Ferrari has a high degree of RELIABILITY
but maybe not as high a degree of DURABILITY
(especailly compared to American Iron)
case in point: replace the Timing Chain a 50K Kms
(this from the Factory Service Manual)
what is that, 30K miles?
and the Engine needs to come OUT for this

I agree that the systems, Engine especailly
will withstand extreme useage
albeit for shorter lengths of time
(before service is dictated)
and is much more susceptible
to missed / ignored service procedure intervals

I think this is the nature of the beast
based on the Racing Heritage of the Breed
you may thrash at will
but you must pay for this in shop time
High Strung thourougbreads do not tolerate being ignored

my car has been extremely reliable BTW
(even got me home with a blown Tranny)

[xs10shl]

I second the comment about unreliable clocks. Out of 5 Ferraris I own, only my 360 Spyder has a functional clock. They should make it a concours requirement to have "the ubiquitous non-functional clock". Minus 5 if your clock is working, minus 10 if it's telling the correct time.

[Matt F]

The clock in my 330 Gt tells time EXACTLY.
(But it only does it twice a day.)

[jsa330]

The clock in my 330 Gt tells time EXACTLY.
(But it only does it twice a day.)

Same with mine. I've heard about getting a quartz movement for old car clocks but haven't looked into it yet.