Leo,
I think Francois meant the whole system, including calipers. At the time this was a 'general interest' discussion as I was not considering switching things over, so details were not discussed. He did make it seem like the procedure was reversible.
I think his point was that, in his opinion, all first generation disk brake systems were not very good.
On the other hand, maybe the vacuum issue has something to do with it. I was able light up the tires at about 110 mph several years ago.
Art S.
Dunlop vs. Bonaldi booster/brakes
When I bought my 330 the brake master and booster had been replaced. What I have is an Ate master cylinder from a 68 to 72 Volvo and a US made Midlands booster. They fit very nicely in their location and didn't need any cutting of the inner fender panel, however it did require shortening the rod on the booster to fit on the pedal cluster properly. I use the original reservoirs. The original parts were long gone when I bought the car. It is my understanding that the original Dunlop master cylinder was quite a problem and the booster wasn't far behind. My present set up looks very good and works quite well. No one has ever noticed that it is not correct.
Jim Burnett
Jim Burnett
yikes
Leo-
the 400i Workshop Manual does state that the Master Cylinder / Booster
can ONLY be serviced as a UNIT given the 'tight tolerances'
I had thought this was a bunch of hooey
(to generate better $ervice revenue)
but this seems to be borne out
by your (apparently unsuccesful) attempts to make adjustments
(I assume this is the adjustment that you refer to
i.e. the Push Rod that actuates the Master Cylinder)
I had pretty much summed up my ideas thus far
in my earlier postings:
the 'fixes' as I see them
1) First and foremost BLEED THE BRAKES
not just get out the air but completely change
and flush out old fluid and replace w/ LMA or DOT 4
(as well as COMPLETE visual inspection of all Brake components)
2) Check all Vacuum Hoses / Clamps for leaks
3) Add a Vacuum Resevior (Summit)
4) Add additional inlets for Manifold Vacuum to system
(but this may adversely affect state of tune e.g. Carbs)
5) Add Auxiallary Electric Vacuum Pump (also Summit)
as you may gather from this list,
I think a major problem is
that the Power Brake System
runs out of Vacuum too easily
and thus appears to be 'bad brakes'
but is actually bad Vacuum
another 'fix' is to replace the MC / Booster
in case the original one is bad
this is a very expensive option
and from what I have gathered
several people have already tried this route
with little / no success:
rarely (if ever) is the Booster the culprit
as for replacing with a 'better' booster
I have not heard of this being done in my case
and any blatant underhood mods
shoots the (already poor) resale value in the head
(although totalling the car because of bad brakes wont help either)
I imagine that if one had a 'Daytona' that competition brake parts
may be had and installed
maybe these would also work for the 400i?
as for the earlier models-
maybe parts from 250 GTO?
any mods like that would obviously entail
a great deal of effort and or expense
and again, carry the stigma of 'custom'
as for my particular circumstances:
I have already done (1) Bleed Brakes
which yielded a BIG improvement
the next step is to replace ALL Vacuum Hoses in system
(yes brand new OEM Hoses and Clamps, ouch)
and check Vacuum Pump (done this, seems OK)
once Engine is back in and running
I will then check Vacuum System level
i.e. mm of Hg that system pulls / holds
vs Workshop Manual specs
if that is OK
and Brakes still suck
then I will look at 'fixes'
starting with adding a Vacuum Resevouir
(OK so I am spell check dependant)
adding a resivour is a good idea anyhow IMHO
as it adds a margin of safety
while the Intake is off on my car (like NOW)
I was going to look at adding an add'l vaccum port
to the other Cylinder Bank
(as only one side is used as a Vacuum source by factory)
the problem with this is that when I looked at it closely
wheras the Intake Manifold used to supply Vacuum
has the Inlet in the BACK
the boss on the Casting (which is there, just not Drilled and Tapped)
is on the FRONT of the Motor on the opposite (unused) Bank
as the Castings are identical (just rotated 180°)
this would make the add'l nipple (and Hose)
a LOT more noticeable
and a lot harder to hide-
I guess with OEM Hose and Clamp
this mod will be hard to spot for most
(given the profusion of Hoses on the FI Engines)
I have not decided what I am going to do at this point
and in fact, forgot that I was going to try to add another nipple
to the Intake Manifold until this post came up
thanks for reminding me!
the 400i Workshop Manual does state that the Master Cylinder / Booster
can ONLY be serviced as a UNIT given the 'tight tolerances'
I had thought this was a bunch of hooey
(to generate better $ervice revenue)
but this seems to be borne out
by your (apparently unsuccesful) attempts to make adjustments
(I assume this is the adjustment that you refer to
i.e. the Push Rod that actuates the Master Cylinder)
I had pretty much summed up my ideas thus far
in my earlier postings:
the 'fixes' as I see them
1) First and foremost BLEED THE BRAKES
not just get out the air but completely change
and flush out old fluid and replace w/ LMA or DOT 4
(as well as COMPLETE visual inspection of all Brake components)
2) Check all Vacuum Hoses / Clamps for leaks
3) Add a Vacuum Resevior (Summit)
4) Add additional inlets for Manifold Vacuum to system
(but this may adversely affect state of tune e.g. Carbs)
5) Add Auxiallary Electric Vacuum Pump (also Summit)
as you may gather from this list,
I think a major problem is
that the Power Brake System
runs out of Vacuum too easily
and thus appears to be 'bad brakes'
but is actually bad Vacuum
another 'fix' is to replace the MC / Booster
in case the original one is bad
this is a very expensive option
and from what I have gathered
several people have already tried this route
with little / no success:
rarely (if ever) is the Booster the culprit
as for replacing with a 'better' booster
I have not heard of this being done in my case
and any blatant underhood mods
shoots the (already poor) resale value in the head
(although totalling the car because of bad brakes wont help either)
I imagine that if one had a 'Daytona' that competition brake parts
may be had and installed
maybe these would also work for the 400i?
as for the earlier models-
maybe parts from 250 GTO?
any mods like that would obviously entail
a great deal of effort and or expense
and again, carry the stigma of 'custom'
as for my particular circumstances:
I have already done (1) Bleed Brakes
which yielded a BIG improvement
the next step is to replace ALL Vacuum Hoses in system
(yes brand new OEM Hoses and Clamps, ouch)
and check Vacuum Pump (done this, seems OK)
once Engine is back in and running
I will then check Vacuum System level
i.e. mm of Hg that system pulls / holds
vs Workshop Manual specs
if that is OK
and Brakes still suck
then I will look at 'fixes'
starting with adding a Vacuum Resevouir
(OK so I am spell check dependant)
adding a resivour is a good idea anyhow IMHO
as it adds a margin of safety
while the Intake is off on my car (like NOW)
I was going to look at adding an add'l vaccum port
to the other Cylinder Bank
(as only one side is used as a Vacuum source by factory)
the problem with this is that when I looked at it closely
wheras the Intake Manifold used to supply Vacuum
has the Inlet in the BACK
the boss on the Casting (which is there, just not Drilled and Tapped)
is on the FRONT of the Motor on the opposite (unused) Bank
as the Castings are identical (just rotated 180°)
this would make the add'l nipple (and Hose)
a LOT more noticeable
and a lot harder to hide-
I guess with OEM Hose and Clamp
this mod will be hard to spot for most
(given the profusion of Hoses on the FI Engines)
I have not decided what I am going to do at this point
and in fact, forgot that I was going to try to add another nipple
to the Intake Manifold until this post came up
thanks for reminding me!
AKB
~~~~~~~
400i SI 32635
~~~~~~~
400i SI 32635
thanks fest for the input
it seems that it is unanamous between people who have posted input
like yourself and chris (the brakes run out of boost), the factory (many
servo changes over the years) and now i was just reading in Bluemel on
page 40:
the 275GTB used the same exact system as on the series ll 330's.
"one high speed stop can exhaust the servo unit; the driver then finds
that superhuman force is needed to bring the car to a stop... even at
low speeds" he mentions adding a vacuum reservoir or a balance pipe.
i assume that a balance pipe is additional ports as fest mentions??
he also goes on to say that in 12/66 the GTB went to the Bonaldi
booster. the GTC section states that in 12/66 the C-84 was switched to the Bonaldi 18172 and then in 05/67 to the Bonaldi Master Vac 14-18943.
then 365GTC's went to the Bonaldi Z3.5 and later cars to the Z4.
what concerns me about Fest's problem is that these 400i cars had a
servo pump which should mean that there is always vacuum?? so why is
there a problem??
not intending to switch gears, but the calipers on the above mention cars
are the same calipers found on some mid 60's Jags. i don't know if the
later E types used the C-84 booster, but there are 2 companies out there
that have caliper conversion kits for these calipers. one is Wilwood and the other is Coopercraft. They both manufacture 4 piston front caliper
replacements for these calipers.
this makes me wonder if there is a caliper problem as well!! if these
companies have gone thru the engineering expense to offer a caliper
retrofit for these Jags, then the Jag owners must have been complaining
about their brakes!!!
BTW: its about $900.00 for a pair of front calipers with all the hardware and pads
i still would like to know if adding a hose between the other intake manifolds will provide better vacuum (but it makes me wonder, if an
amatuer like me thought of this, why didn't the factory!!) and will it
also alter the idle and/ or performance??
Fest, your servo pump assisted car should have incredible braking, no??
it seems that it is unanamous between people who have posted input
like yourself and chris (the brakes run out of boost), the factory (many
servo changes over the years) and now i was just reading in Bluemel on
page 40:
the 275GTB used the same exact system as on the series ll 330's.
"one high speed stop can exhaust the servo unit; the driver then finds
that superhuman force is needed to bring the car to a stop... even at
low speeds" he mentions adding a vacuum reservoir or a balance pipe.
i assume that a balance pipe is additional ports as fest mentions??
he also goes on to say that in 12/66 the GTB went to the Bonaldi
booster. the GTC section states that in 12/66 the C-84 was switched to the Bonaldi 18172 and then in 05/67 to the Bonaldi Master Vac 14-18943.
then 365GTC's went to the Bonaldi Z3.5 and later cars to the Z4.
what concerns me about Fest's problem is that these 400i cars had a
servo pump which should mean that there is always vacuum?? so why is
there a problem??
not intending to switch gears, but the calipers on the above mention cars
are the same calipers found on some mid 60's Jags. i don't know if the
later E types used the C-84 booster, but there are 2 companies out there
that have caliper conversion kits for these calipers. one is Wilwood and the other is Coopercraft. They both manufacture 4 piston front caliper
replacements for these calipers.
this makes me wonder if there is a caliper problem as well!! if these
companies have gone thru the engineering expense to offer a caliper
retrofit for these Jags, then the Jag owners must have been complaining
about their brakes!!!
BTW: its about $900.00 for a pair of front calipers with all the hardware and pads
i still would like to know if adding a hose between the other intake manifolds will provide better vacuum (but it makes me wonder, if an
amatuer like me thought of this, why didn't the factory!!) and will it
also alter the idle and/ or performance??
Fest, your servo pump assisted car should have incredible braking, no??
one more item:
if anyone can shed some light, i am still curious about whether the
large masters make a difference. either better brakes or a firmer
pedal
Bluemel also mentions that under hard braking the cast calipers have
a tendency to spead which reduces the braking efficiency and gives a
soft feel to the pedal!!!!!!
if anyone can shed some light, i am still curious about whether the
large masters make a difference. either better brakes or a firmer
pedal
Bluemel also mentions that under hard braking the cast calipers have
a tendency to spead which reduces the braking efficiency and gives a
soft feel to the pedal!!!!!!
yale,
its interesting that you mention this because Bluemel goes on to say that
the problem got worse for the 6 carbs because now you only have 2 cylinders providing vacuum!!
i notice that the GTC went thru the exact same progression of boosters,
Dunlop, to Bonnaldi, to yet another Bonaldi, just like the GTB and 2+2's,
but they had different calipers. Also, the 365 GTC went to a Bonaldi
Z3.5 and Ate calipers...what does this mean? i haven't a clue!!!
But it soes seem as if this was an evolution to address a problem!
also, each of these boosters was larger. there must have been a
reason as to why the factory didn't tap into the other intake ports for
vacuum supply: these designer/engineers were the best in racing of
their day. Yes??
its interesting that you mention this because Bluemel goes on to say that
the problem got worse for the 6 carbs because now you only have 2 cylinders providing vacuum!!
i notice that the GTC went thru the exact same progression of boosters,
Dunlop, to Bonnaldi, to yet another Bonaldi, just like the GTB and 2+2's,
but they had different calipers. Also, the 365 GTC went to a Bonaldi
Z3.5 and Ate calipers...what does this mean? i haven't a clue!!!
But it soes seem as if this was an evolution to address a problem!
also, each of these boosters was larger. there must have been a
reason as to why the factory didn't tap into the other intake ports for
vacuum supply: these designer/engineers were the best in racing of
their day. Yes??
i guess what i was looking for in my last post was some input from some
330 and 365 GTC owners to share their braking experience. even though
this may not be an apples to apples comparison, the basic set up is the same and it might be worthy to hear about 330GTC vs. 365GTC is anyone
out there has driven both!!
Do you GTC owners run out of vacuum??
330 and 365 GTC owners to share their braking experience. even though
this may not be an apples to apples comparison, the basic set up is the same and it might be worthy to hear about 330GTC vs. 365GTC is anyone
out there has driven both!!
Do you GTC owners run out of vacuum??
It seems like you guys are limited to thinking that limited braking is due to a undersized master/booster.
As far as I am concerned it is the calipers and pad material. The Dunlop calipers of that era have a frame that holds the pistons. Jaguar used the same "frame" but with bigger pistons. I bought a set of pistons from a Jag 420, a huge heavy limosine and installed that had 2-1/2" pistons. I put these pistons on the front of a 275 GTB/4 and installed the original 2-1/8" bore pistons onto the rear replacing the original 1-3/4". I then installed R4S pads from Porterfield and finally got good brakes. Understand that the pad surface area is tiny for the Dunlops and the master cly/booster is stock while the calipers look stock as well.
By theway, 330 GTC has a large 4 pot caliper up front looking more like a Daytona unit.
As far as I am concerned it is the calipers and pad material. The Dunlop calipers of that era have a frame that holds the pistons. Jaguar used the same "frame" but with bigger pistons. I bought a set of pistons from a Jag 420, a huge heavy limosine and installed that had 2-1/2" pistons. I put these pistons on the front of a 275 GTB/4 and installed the original 2-1/8" bore pistons onto the rear replacing the original 1-3/4". I then installed R4S pads from Porterfield and finally got good brakes. Understand that the pad surface area is tiny for the Dunlops and the master cly/booster is stock while the calipers look stock as well.
By theway, 330 GTC has a large 4 pot caliper up front looking more like a Daytona unit.
stephanm,
i have heard this before regarding the swapping out of the pistons!
and your point is well taken i have sent a mail to
www.coopercraft.co.uk
regarding their 4 piston caliper conversions and will post any info i
receive
was it easy to order those larger pistons?/
i have heard this before regarding the swapping out of the pistons!
and your point is well taken i have sent a mail to
www.coopercraft.co.uk
regarding their 4 piston caliper conversions and will post any info i
receive
was it easy to order those larger pistons?/
Leo,
I think the 365 brakes are pretty great. Go to Porterfield in CA, I think they have a website, and look for pads that work with daytona, 365 GT4BB, 365 2+2 etc. They have all kinds of pads and maybe even discs for these cars at fraction of the cost of "dealer"
Otherwise, 365 has vented discs in front, and I cannot remember iif they are at rear also. I will look in the morning
I think the 365 brakes are pretty great. Go to Porterfield in CA, I think they have a website, and look for pads that work with daytona, 365 GT4BB, 365 2+2 etc. They have all kinds of pads and maybe even discs for these cars at fraction of the cost of "dealer"
Otherwise, 365 has vented discs in front, and I cannot remember iif they are at rear also. I will look in the morning
Here is what Porterfield sells. People have recommended them before but when I put in 1964 330 it only seems to come up with post 1965. I wonder if this means they don't cover the series 1's or it could be a mistake or the pads are the same for Series 1's and 2's? Anyone know?
By the way R4S is street and R4 is track. And also since they make custom rotors I guess they could make them for our cars. I wonder what the price diffence would be from "stock" ones and maybe Stephan would know how much difference this would make?
Pad Type Make Model Year Front Part Number Front Price Rear Part Number Rear Price Pad MFG
R4 FERRARI 330 65-66 DD705 $ 119.00 DD704 $ 119.00 PORT
R4 FERRARI 330 67-68 GD522 $ 129.00 GD557 $ 119.00 PORT
R4 FERRARI 330, 365 68-75 FRP105 $ 159.00 GD557 $ 119.00 PORT
R4S FERRARI 330 65-66 DD705 $ 119.00 DD704 $ 89.00 PORT
R4S FERRARI 330 67-68 GD522 $ 79.00 GD557 $ 79.00 PORT
R4S FERRARI 330, 365 68-72 FRP105 $ 159.00 GD557 $ 79.00 PORT
R4E FERRARI 330 65-66 DD705 $ 119.00 DD704 $ 119.00 PORT
R4E FERRARI 330 67-68 GD522 $ 129.00 GD557 $ 119.00 PORT
R4E FERRARI 330, 365 68-72 FRP105 $ 159.00 GD557 $ 119.00 PORT
As for Jag 420 pistons, this guy on long Island sells stainless steel ones and also ones that are for the 330GT's.
John Farrell Auto Parts
57D Alder Street, W. Babylon NY 11704
Phone: 800 454 7977 Fax: 631 694 7217
I have heard of some problems from Dominics guys about getting pistons that stuck, not once but twice from this place. So Tom's suppliers also mentions:
http://www.hyedracyl.com/
Anybody use them? While we are on th ... est, Yale
By the way R4S is street and R4 is track. And also since they make custom rotors I guess they could make them for our cars. I wonder what the price diffence would be from "stock" ones and maybe Stephan would know how much difference this would make?
Pad Type Make Model Year Front Part Number Front Price Rear Part Number Rear Price Pad MFG
R4 FERRARI 330 65-66 DD705 $ 119.00 DD704 $ 119.00 PORT
R4 FERRARI 330 67-68 GD522 $ 129.00 GD557 $ 119.00 PORT
R4 FERRARI 330, 365 68-75 FRP105 $ 159.00 GD557 $ 119.00 PORT
R4S FERRARI 330 65-66 DD705 $ 119.00 DD704 $ 89.00 PORT
R4S FERRARI 330 67-68 GD522 $ 79.00 GD557 $ 79.00 PORT
R4S FERRARI 330, 365 68-72 FRP105 $ 159.00 GD557 $ 79.00 PORT
R4E FERRARI 330 65-66 DD705 $ 119.00 DD704 $ 119.00 PORT
R4E FERRARI 330 67-68 GD522 $ 129.00 GD557 $ 119.00 PORT
R4E FERRARI 330, 365 68-72 FRP105 $ 159.00 GD557 $ 119.00 PORT
As for Jag 420 pistons, this guy on long Island sells stainless steel ones and also ones that are for the 330GT's.
John Farrell Auto Parts
57D Alder Street, W. Babylon NY 11704
Phone: 800 454 7977 Fax: 631 694 7217
I have heard of some problems from Dominics guys about getting pistons that stuck, not once but twice from this place. So Tom's suppliers also mentions:
http://www.hyedracyl.com/
Anybody use them? While we are on th ... est, Yale