Forgive my ignorance, I just recently read, I believe on the Pinnacle website that they have a swb pushing 400hp and on another website read of a GTO re-bodied 330 that was pushing close to 600hp. Question #1, can custom pistons to bump up compression, rejected carbs, polished heads, and a reground cam produce these results? If so how would that affect drivability and reliability? 400hp in a queen mother sounds like fun.
Once again, my intent is not to offend purist but to simply increase my knowledge of these wonderful cars.
Very respectfully,
400hp from a 250swb engine and 600hp from a 330 engine?
400hp from a 250swb engine and 600hp from a 330 engine?
365 gt 2+2 (in work) "always researching and saving"
Catania, Sicily
Catania, Sicily
i would like to hear some experts weigh in here. i am not interested in
a 600hp motor, but i would like to know and understand what makes the
factory GTO put out so much more power than my 330. and lets omit
all the weight and aerodynamic stuff....i am talking strictly about the motor.
is it just a simple as increasing compression and tweaking the cams?
and at what point DO you lose the drivebility? is there a way to make
a moderate gain and yet maintain an original feel and idle??
a 600hp motor, but i would like to know and understand what makes the
factory GTO put out so much more power than my 330. and lets omit
all the weight and aerodynamic stuff....i am talking strictly about the motor.
is it just a simple as increasing compression and tweaking the cams?
and at what point DO you lose the drivebility? is there a way to make
a moderate gain and yet maintain an original feel and idle??
A couple of years ago I was having a similar discussion with Mike Sheehan. He said Caribou Engineering in So. CA can do such engine mods, but at a price. In Particular, we were talking about the 209 engine, which stock, is nominally 300 hp with 3 twin choke Webers.
Here's what was involved for 400 hp and reliability:
New crank, Titanium Conn rods, new pistons. Remachining, so bearing caps accept better/more bolts. Dido for the head. Everything ported and polished and balanced. 6 webers. New cams. Custom headers. Etc. And the cost=mucho.
And that was for 400 hp. 600 hp seems unobtainable, even without reliability.
Jim
Here's what was involved for 400 hp and reliability:
New crank, Titanium Conn rods, new pistons. Remachining, so bearing caps accept better/more bolts. Dido for the head. Everything ported and polished and balanced. 6 webers. New cams. Custom headers. Etc. And the cost=mucho.
And that was for 400 hp. 600 hp seems unobtainable, even without reliability.
Jim
'67 330 GTS
s/n 10567
s/n 10567
Anything is possibe for a price. Look at what is acheived with F-1 motor...at, what is it these days, 17000rpm? I know there are GTO cams available, and all sorts of other lightweight products, but how deep are your pockets?
I think it's ironic that Paul (Leo) is also interested in stopping his car better. More power will certainly exacerbate the "whoa" in his prancing pony! ;-)
Tom
I think it's ironic that Paul (Leo) is also interested in stopping his car better. More power will certainly exacerbate the "whoa" in his prancing pony! ;-)
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
I asked my mechanic, a 25 yr. Ferrari/Lambo guy with lots of performance mod experience about tweaking and he told me the best approach is to keep it well maintained, tuned to factory spec, and to make sure ignition and fuel delivery is always in top shape, with old parts renewed and replaced promptly as needed. Ferrari had the driveability factor well figured out for the production models. If you want to mess with it and get some very serious power and performance gains, you're looking at a 6 carb setup, high compression pistons, different cam grinds, and on and on. Result: BIG bucks spent to convert to essentially a racing engine, and largely lost everday crank it up and go driveability.
One project I would look into if I could find a spare hood reasonably is to design a flow thru cold air box to get some ram air power to the carbs and provide some additional engine cooling as well . I looked at the website for Inglese Induction Systems, which supplies velocity stacks with slipover filters for Weber carbs but they didn't have anything for the carbs I have.
One project I would look into if I could find a spare hood reasonably is to design a flow thru cold air box to get some ram air power to the carbs and provide some additional engine cooling as well . I looked at the website for Inglese Induction Systems, which supplies velocity stacks with slipover filters for Weber carbs but they didn't have anything for the carbs I have.
Current: 1983 308 GTS
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
optimistic
The woods are full of wild, unsubsubstantiated HP Claims
even dyno results can be fudged
400 HP strains the limit of credulity
and 600 HP just seems out of reach
even dyno results can be fudged
400 HP strains the limit of credulity
and 600 HP just seems out of reach
AKB
~~~~~~~
400i SI 32635
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400i SI 32635
[quote="Leo"]... but i would like to know and understand what makes the
factory GTO put out so much more power than my 330. and lets omit
all the weight and aerodynamic stuff....i am talking strictly about the motor.
is it just a simple as increasing compression and tweaking the cams?
and at what point DO you lose the drivebility? is there a way to make
a moderate gain and yet maintain an original feel and idle??[/quote]
No expert ;), but from what I have read the GTO is not as drive-able as a 330, ie. it will foul plugs and generally need to wake up to run its best.
This is the normal in a race engine. We also have to remember that the GTO engine only really produced 290-300hp, thus a 400 hp (if indeed possible on an old fashioned engine, with only 2 valves per cylinder) would be extremely horrible to drive, except on a race track.
Again would they gain much from that peaky 400 hp versus a 300 hp car ... hmmm, with out fancy gear ratios and being able to carry the speed through the corners I think not. Probably be great on fast tracks but tight and twisty tracks need torque and a wide power delivery.
Thus IMO, this is either BS ;) ... or an inacurate dyno. On top of this one has to wonder why somebody is ruining such a great engine and now OLD racing car. Why not go and race a modern car if they want more power?
Also what we have to remember when we compare hp to the huge hp that F1 engines produce is that the fly by wire throttle makes that engine drive-able. Without the fly by wire throttle ensuring that the torque increase is steady and linear, the cars would be impossible to drive and SLOW. Last time I looked at a 60's Ferrari the throttle was controlled by a direct linkage ... and thus there is a practical limit on hp to make lap times improve.
In conclusion some people just do not understand old cars and classic car racing ... it is NOT supposed to be about winning ...
Pete
factory GTO put out so much more power than my 330. and lets omit
all the weight and aerodynamic stuff....i am talking strictly about the motor.
is it just a simple as increasing compression and tweaking the cams?
and at what point DO you lose the drivebility? is there a way to make
a moderate gain and yet maintain an original feel and idle??[/quote]
No expert ;), but from what I have read the GTO is not as drive-able as a 330, ie. it will foul plugs and generally need to wake up to run its best.
This is the normal in a race engine. We also have to remember that the GTO engine only really produced 290-300hp, thus a 400 hp (if indeed possible on an old fashioned engine, with only 2 valves per cylinder) would be extremely horrible to drive, except on a race track.
Again would they gain much from that peaky 400 hp versus a 300 hp car ... hmmm, with out fancy gear ratios and being able to carry the speed through the corners I think not. Probably be great on fast tracks but tight and twisty tracks need torque and a wide power delivery.
Thus IMO, this is either BS ;) ... or an inacurate dyno. On top of this one has to wonder why somebody is ruining such a great engine and now OLD racing car. Why not go and race a modern car if they want more power?
Also what we have to remember when we compare hp to the huge hp that F1 engines produce is that the fly by wire throttle makes that engine drive-able. Without the fly by wire throttle ensuring that the torque increase is steady and linear, the cars would be impossible to drive and SLOW. Last time I looked at a 60's Ferrari the throttle was controlled by a direct linkage ... and thus there is a practical limit on hp to make lap times improve.
In conclusion some people just do not understand old cars and classic car racing ... it is NOT supposed to be about winning ...
Pete
I think that there is a misunderstanding about the power of the 250 GTO vs. the later 330 (209 engine) cars.
The GTO's 3 liter engine was rated 300 hp @ 7,500 rpm, while, as an example, the 330 GTS's 4 liter 209 engine was rated 300 hp @ 7,000 rpm (from Fitzerald, Merritt & Thompson"s Book).
Thus, the numbers are nearly equal, but the GTO does it with 3 liters and the 330's do it with 4 liters. The GTO's engine cams probably provided this power at higher revs, and the car most likely weighed less than street 330 models. Suspension setups would be different also. Add aggressive pro drivers, and the GTO would certainly seem to drive circles around noncompetiton 330 models.
Nevertheless, the GTO and 330 209 engines produced the same horsepower (if the literature from Ferrari is to believed).
JIm
The GTO's 3 liter engine was rated 300 hp @ 7,500 rpm, while, as an example, the 330 GTS's 4 liter 209 engine was rated 300 hp @ 7,000 rpm (from Fitzerald, Merritt & Thompson"s Book).
Thus, the numbers are nearly equal, but the GTO does it with 3 liters and the 330's do it with 4 liters. The GTO's engine cams probably provided this power at higher revs, and the car most likely weighed less than street 330 models. Suspension setups would be different also. Add aggressive pro drivers, and the GTO would certainly seem to drive circles around noncompetiton 330 models.
Nevertheless, the GTO and 330 209 engines produced the same horsepower (if the literature from Ferrari is to believed).
JIm
'67 330 GTS
s/n 10567
s/n 10567