Vintage GT 2+2
Vintage GT 2+2
Between the 330 GT 2+2 and the 365 GT 2+2 what are the pro's and con's of ownership of each model ? Any and all advice would be very appreciated as I am probably looking to acquire a vintage GT 2+2 in the next 12 months.
I have an early queen mother - have never owned a 330, but I can give you an unvarnished viewpoint on the 365:
320 horses - more than the 330, but the 365 is also a tad heavier.
5 speed box - Series I 330s had a 4 speed
pneumatic levelers - a very nice feature - but if it isn't working right, $$$
independent rear suspension for a more responsive ride
electricals - more complicated than on a 330. Ferrari went luxury on this car, so everything is power, even the damn front vent windows easily in reach are electrically operated (at least on the early queens). You'll spend a lot of time cleaning up all the ground connections.
looks - you need to decide what gets your motor going - the long, long lines of the queen mother work for me . . . it has a very uncluttered look, esp. with the front signal lights incorporated into the bumpers (practically a good idea????)
320 horses - more than the 330, but the 365 is also a tad heavier.
5 speed box - Series I 330s had a 4 speed
pneumatic levelers - a very nice feature - but if it isn't working right, $$$
independent rear suspension for a more responsive ride
electricals - more complicated than on a 330. Ferrari went luxury on this car, so everything is power, even the damn front vent windows easily in reach are electrically operated (at least on the early queens). You'll spend a lot of time cleaning up all the ground connections.
looks - you need to decide what gets your motor going - the long, long lines of the queen mother work for me . . . it has a very uncluttered look, esp. with the front signal lights incorporated into the bumpers (practically a good idea????)
1968 365 GT 2+2
s/n 11199
1955 s.II 500 Mondial
s/n 0556(0446)MD
1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale
s/n 11199
1955 s.II 500 Mondial
s/n 0556(0446)MD
1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale
Bryan P has summed up the full luxury gran turismo characteristics of the 365 2+2.
I have a very early Series I 330 2+2. Compared to a later fully optioned 330 2+2 or the 365, it is much more akin to the 250 GTE/330 America series cars. In other words, it is a relative antique. No A/C, no radio, no power anything, crank windows, painted dash.
This situation has good and and not so good points.
Good:
-Probably as pure a retro Ferrari driving experience as you can have with a production 2+2. With that engine sound, you don't need a radio. A trip to the store is an Event. Contrary to conventional wisdom(or bullshit), 60's 2+2 Ferraris do attract attention.
-Without the luxury extras, a lot less expensive stuff to maintain, repair, or replace. After sorting out and reconditioning what was a solid car at purchase, the 330 is very reliable and predictable. Easy to do basic maintenance myself. Surprisingly, most parts are available.
-My financial investment is modest in Ferrari terms. I expect to get a full return on it in the sense of longterm ownership pleasure. If the market for vintage production Ferraris ever makes a sustained rise, I can do the bare metal repaint, new interior, etc., in good conscience.
Not so good:
-For the area I live in, it is not a comfortable year round driver. In Texas, the lack of A/C limits driving a lot for about four months out of the year. That and the non assisted steering make it a real beast in city traffic.
In an aesthetic sense, my personal opinion is that design quality for all production Ferraris, 2 and 4 seaters, was at its best in the 1960's. The size of the 365 is a little overwhelming for me, but it is still an extremely good looking car.
I don't think you can make a good objective case for one over the other.
I have a very early Series I 330 2+2. Compared to a later fully optioned 330 2+2 or the 365, it is much more akin to the 250 GTE/330 America series cars. In other words, it is a relative antique. No A/C, no radio, no power anything, crank windows, painted dash.
This situation has good and and not so good points.
Good:
-Probably as pure a retro Ferrari driving experience as you can have with a production 2+2. With that engine sound, you don't need a radio. A trip to the store is an Event. Contrary to conventional wisdom(or bullshit), 60's 2+2 Ferraris do attract attention.
-Without the luxury extras, a lot less expensive stuff to maintain, repair, or replace. After sorting out and reconditioning what was a solid car at purchase, the 330 is very reliable and predictable. Easy to do basic maintenance myself. Surprisingly, most parts are available.
-My financial investment is modest in Ferrari terms. I expect to get a full return on it in the sense of longterm ownership pleasure. If the market for vintage production Ferraris ever makes a sustained rise, I can do the bare metal repaint, new interior, etc., in good conscience.
Not so good:
-For the area I live in, it is not a comfortable year round driver. In Texas, the lack of A/C limits driving a lot for about four months out of the year. That and the non assisted steering make it a real beast in city traffic.
In an aesthetic sense, my personal opinion is that design quality for all production Ferraris, 2 and 4 seaters, was at its best in the 1960's. The size of the 365 is a little overwhelming for me, but it is still an extremely good looking car.
I don't think you can make a good objective case for one over the other.
Current: 1983 308 GTS
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
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330 America
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:51 pm
- Location: Texas Hill Country
- Contact:
2+2 Recommendations
Since you're considering a 365 (so did I), and a 330, why not consider a 250? Like you, I wanted a classic 2+2 that wouldn't break the bank (under $100K acquisition cost) and wouldn't bleed me of my mortgage payment each month to keep it running.
Having looked at 365's, 360's, 456's, and 550's -- one thing rings true for Ferrari: the more features, the higher the incidence of repairs...and the repairs ain't cheap. Thus, I drove several models and decided to go the 250 GTE route and then "stumbled" onto my 330 America.
Reasons:
(1) Design lines - the 250 GTE has the classic Aston Martin DB4 look of the early 60's James Bond movies. The Borranni's and relatively short wheelbase don't look outdated 40 years later. And if you've ever trying turning one of these beasts, the turning radius stinks -- thus, the longer the wheelbase, the more compounded the problem (even WITH power assisted steering).
(2) Simplistic design - no electronics (lots of basic mechanical and vacuum driven items), fewer interior parts, etc. Basically, less crap to breakdown.
(3) Proven Engine - the 3.0L V12 was used for a long period of time (8 or so years) in both racing (250 SWB) and then in the 900+ GTE's made between 1961-1963 so Ferrari had plenty of time to stabilize the design and the engine runs really nicely. In fact, the 4.0L V12 was a derivative of the 3.0L design, only with better cooling and head work producing the increase in horsepower. However, the 235-240hp from the 3.0L V12 is plenty for cruising which is what you do with these cars. None of the 60's cars (including Daytona's) handle well at high speeds (heavy lead sleds) -- they ain't no Porsche from that era, so boulevard cruising is what you do with them.
Sure, it would be nice to have a true 5-speed, but like the other guys noted my 4-speed overdrive unit works fine so until it breaks, I'm not going to complain. And yes, I've also got guys at every Home Depot and stoplight asking me to sell the 330 America to them, so it will turn heads. But I must agree that lack of A/C is a killer here in Texas or anywhere that its hot, but that's when you drive another car anyway ('57 convertible Speedster anyone?)
Good luck -- they're all Ferrari's so you get the cache of owning one, but you're going to have to walk around the car and look at it from afar (after you've driven each) to see which one steals your heart.
Having looked at 365's, 360's, 456's, and 550's -- one thing rings true for Ferrari: the more features, the higher the incidence of repairs...and the repairs ain't cheap. Thus, I drove several models and decided to go the 250 GTE route and then "stumbled" onto my 330 America.
Reasons:
(1) Design lines - the 250 GTE has the classic Aston Martin DB4 look of the early 60's James Bond movies. The Borranni's and relatively short wheelbase don't look outdated 40 years later. And if you've ever trying turning one of these beasts, the turning radius stinks -- thus, the longer the wheelbase, the more compounded the problem (even WITH power assisted steering).
(2) Simplistic design - no electronics (lots of basic mechanical and vacuum driven items), fewer interior parts, etc. Basically, less crap to breakdown.
(3) Proven Engine - the 3.0L V12 was used for a long period of time (8 or so years) in both racing (250 SWB) and then in the 900+ GTE's made between 1961-1963 so Ferrari had plenty of time to stabilize the design and the engine runs really nicely. In fact, the 4.0L V12 was a derivative of the 3.0L design, only with better cooling and head work producing the increase in horsepower. However, the 235-240hp from the 3.0L V12 is plenty for cruising which is what you do with these cars. None of the 60's cars (including Daytona's) handle well at high speeds (heavy lead sleds) -- they ain't no Porsche from that era, so boulevard cruising is what you do with them.
Sure, it would be nice to have a true 5-speed, but like the other guys noted my 4-speed overdrive unit works fine so until it breaks, I'm not going to complain. And yes, I've also got guys at every Home Depot and stoplight asking me to sell the 330 America to them, so it will turn heads. But I must agree that lack of A/C is a killer here in Texas or anywhere that its hot, but that's when you drive another car anyway ('57 convertible Speedster anyone?)
Good luck -- they're all Ferrari's so you get the cache of owning one, but you're going to have to walk around the car and look at it from afar (after you've driven each) to see which one steals your heart.
Steve Patti
Ferrari 330 Americ (5061) - SOLD
1988 Porsche 944 Rothmans Turbo Cup (ex-Bill Adam)
1988 Porsche 944 Rothmans Turbo Cup (7UP guest car)
Ferrari 330 Americ (5061) - SOLD
1988 Porsche 944 Rothmans Turbo Cup (ex-Bill Adam)
1988 Porsche 944 Rothmans Turbo Cup (7UP guest car)
It seems that there is a lot of passion for the 250 GTE. I will definitely take a look at the 250 as well as the later GT 2+2. I have also seen a couple of 330 Americas come up for sale in the European auction market in the last year. Is there much difference between the 330 America and the 250 GTE ? Thanks, Boxer42
365 GTB/4 Daytona, F40
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330 America
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2003 5:51 pm
- Location: Texas Hill Country
- Contact:
250GTE vs. 330 America
The difference is that the 330 America got the new 4.0 Liter engine which offered better head cooling and other advantages besides the increase in displacement. Ferrari used the same motor in the 400 Super America and rated it at 340hp, but conservatively rated the same engine in the 330 America at 300hp so that they could maintain the product positioning of the 400 Super America as their top-of-the-line car ("Enzo") of that time. I bought one of the 330 America's you probably saw at the Bonhams Auction in Gstaad, Switzerland in December 2003. The car is undergoing to 100% original restoration, including paint, Connolly leather, NOS Marchal headlamps and foglights, etc. The car will be ready in December 2004 to drive.
There were 50 330 America's made (as opposed to 900+ GTE's) and rumor has it in the 330 America registry that under 20 are documented to be left in existence. Having driven both cars, the power advantage of the 330 America is noticable, but not a "deal killer" -- meaning that a well-tuned 250GTE will drive very nicely around town with good highway acceleration. I favor the '63 (Series III) because it got the rear coil-overs in addition to leaf springs which makes for a stiffer (and better handling) car. I also like the fog lights in the front -- albeit they are expensive to replace.
There were 50 330 America's made (as opposed to 900+ GTE's) and rumor has it in the 330 America registry that under 20 are documented to be left in existence. Having driven both cars, the power advantage of the 330 America is noticable, but not a "deal killer" -- meaning that a well-tuned 250GTE will drive very nicely around town with good highway acceleration. I favor the '63 (Series III) because it got the rear coil-overs in addition to leaf springs which makes for a stiffer (and better handling) car. I also like the fog lights in the front -- albeit they are expensive to replace.
Steve Patti
Ferrari 330 Americ (5061) - SOLD
1988 Porsche 944 Rothmans Turbo Cup (ex-Bill Adam)
1988 Porsche 944 Rothmans Turbo Cup (7UP guest car)
Ferrari 330 Americ (5061) - SOLD
1988 Porsche 944 Rothmans Turbo Cup (ex-Bill Adam)
1988 Porsche 944 Rothmans Turbo Cup (7UP guest car)
Yes I do remember the car from the Dec 03 Gstaad auction. Sounds like you got a very good buy as the condition looked to be pretty solid to start with. Beautiful car. Enjoy. I believe another 330 America one came up recently for sale in the Netherlands. If my memory is correct the car is ex Nancy Sintra.
365 GTB/4 Daytona, F40
Boxer 42, go to www.kruseinternational.com click on full calender then click on Auburn. it is lot 2724 or just look at the ferrari listing. also see pics on sheehans page www.ferraris-online.com "cars we sold" read my post on 330 America to be auctioned at auburn for more information.
William
William