Pulled the motor and transmission out of my 365 GT4 2+2

ricar116 · Post by **ricar116** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:58 pm

What an experience! I only have three things to say patience, patience,and... patience. Didn't tear any thing up, have a bit of a bruised ego and a lot less skin. Estimated 8 hr job turned into 20+. Now I am not a wrench wizard, but I have taken a big block out of a Camaro in my earlier days and have dropped a 911 motor or two. Doing a 50KM service timing chain, and sending her to the paint shop in the mean time. The sevice manual can be a bit vague and wonderfully specific. I think I learned enough to reinstall with a little less head scratching, and a bit more humility. I am better for it. This is absolutely dooable. Get the manuals take your time and go for it! The big question is should I freshen the motor while it is out. In my brilliance I did not run a compression check, but the car ran smooth, fast and did not smoke. Oil pressure was well within specs.
Rick

Post by **tyang** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:54 pm

Hi Rick,

The big question is should I freshen the motor while it is out. In my brilliance I did not run a compression check, but the car ran smooth, fast and did not smoke. Oil pressure was well within specs.

You can still run a compression test if the motor is securly mounted, or at least run a leakdown test with some compressed air. If the distributors are out, MARK EVERYTHING, so you can put everything back!

The rest of the answer, is how much money do you want to spend? Freshening up a Ferrari motor is no cheap endeavor. Unless the motor shows sickness, you may want to reconsider. You know what to do with a sleeping bear, don't you?

Tom

fest · Post by **fest** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:03 pm

Rick-

I am in the same boat-
motor is OUT and Timing Chain being replaced

I have decided to leave Heads ON and Crank and Pistons IN

I AM replacing all Gaskets and Seals
I have repainted Block (but NOT Heads)
as well as Sump, etc

I have re-built Oil and Water Pumps

Timing Case is back on and Chain is in
and I have just completed Valve Lash 'adjustment'
I am now am awaiting Goniometer
so that I may check Cam Timing

(I also am in the midst of 'freshening' the engine compartment)

after this, it should be a straight shot to re-assembly

I anticipated the whole job to take from Thanksgiving to Memorial Day
well, here it is past the 4th of July, and I am not even CLOSE

one thing I have learned from this
(Tom Y can probably affirm this)
is that restoring a Ferrari can't be held to any fixed schedule
everything has to be done 'just so'
and if it does not come out right the first time
you need to do it over again (and again)
until you DO get it right
(the third time is usually the charm)

one mistake I DID make
is I did NOT take Engine to TDC 1/7
before disassembly
this was a mistake because now I do not know
if Distributor fixed advance is 8° BTDC or at 0°
(Manual has conflicting information)

how did you make out on the Engine stand, BTW?

mcmichael · Post by **mcmichael** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:59 am

re:
>I am now am awaiting Goniometer so that I may check Cam Timing

OK, I'll bite. What is a 'Goniometer'? Did I check my cam timing without one, or did I call it something else???

chrisoutzen · Post by **chrisoutzen** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:50 am

GONIOMETER (from Gr. ywvia, angle, and j.d-rpov, measure), an instrument for measuring the angles of crystals; there are two kindsthe contact goniometer and the reflecting goniometer. Nicolaus Stena in 1669 determined the interfacial angles of quartz crystals by cutting sections perpendicular to the edges, the plane angles of the sections being then the angles between the faces which are perpendicular to the sections. The earliest instrument was the contact goniometer devised by Catangeot in 1783.

Dr. Ian Levy · Post by **Dr. Ian Levy** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:23 pm

Ric
There is no problem running the engine out of the car.
Just set it up on your engine stand & use a gravity feed fuel can.It runs smooth but LOUD I did & it ran great- but you need some ear defenders. You can then do all your tests,compression leakdown etc.
Goniometer for the non Latin/Greek scholars is equivalent to a degree disc which you use for degree measurements on the flywheel.
i have A Ferrari one if you need it. For the cost of shipping & you send it back at your expense.
Very helpful in setting valve timing accurately.
I also had a motor that ran well with good compression, no smoke but an oil leak I fixed the leak & some other simple bits, new clutch & release bearing & put it back in the car
What do you guys say"If it ain't broke don't fix it" unless you want to spend many more thousands over your original budget-which you are already way over
Regards
Ian L

ricar116 · Post by **ricar116** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:06 pm

Being from Missouri we say aint, but that's a another story. Thanks for the input. You all are right fix what's broke first. I think I will re seal the motor only 57,000 KM, change the chain and drive her, and of course detail the engine compartment, and rebuild the carbs and.... Are the Ferrari degree wheels any different than any other degree wheel? I have the engine stand layed out not welded, hope to get that done Friday. The motor is perched on a couple of 4"X4" blocks until I get the stand completed. My shop looks like a scene from a B horror flick with the victim being a 365GT4. It is amazing how somthing that pretty on the outside can get so nasty on the inside. Thanks for the replys I am sure I will have many questions.
Rick

fest · Post by **fest** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:19 pm

Gentlemen:

for your edification, I present the elusive Goniometer:

This differs from the garden variety in that the Graduations are static
and the pointer moves-
as opposed to a Degree Wheel with a fixed pointer.

I have located a NOS Goniometer
P/N 95977006 BTW
(superseded, new # escapes me)
and am awaiting it's arrival

those with elephantine memories may recall
(much to my chagrin)
that I was unaware of this procedure
and niaevely thought the degree wheel
went on the CAM,
and not on the CRANK

I guess I have come a long way since then...

Dr. Ian Levy · Post by **Dr. Ian Levy** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:49 am

Andrew
When you have set your valve timing I would be interested,as I am sure would others, on the precise procedure you followed.
The accuracy of the cam timing marks on the camshafts & their supports compared to the settings produced by the goniometer would also be interesting.
Regarding placing the goniometer on the cam.When my degree disc arrived from Ferrari UK it was exactly the same diameter as the flywheel. It did not take Einstein to realise thats where it was used- so dont be TOO upset
Regards
Ian L

fest · Post by **fest** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:44 pm

I hope to have the Goniometer within the next week
(right in time to go camping for a week, SIGH)

The Ferrari UK tech 'Guru' I consulted
states the Timing Alignment marks on Cams and Bearings
are right on the money
but I have heard otherwise-
I plan to check the exact Timing with Goniomoter
as that is what the Workshop Manual suggests

one method (from Bill Bradurski of FCA fame)
recommends to use a Dial Indicator
to detect exactly when the Valve moves
(and thus begins to open or close)

another method (from the Bishop Book)
is to rotate the Cam Followers (by hand)
and that is how to tell when Valve moves
(and again, open or close)
as followers become free, or not

I have a Dial Indicator, etc
(that I recently bought to check Chain Tension)
but I like the 'Hands On' approach better I think

both methods predicate adjusting the Valve Clearance
to an abnormally large clearance (like .5mm or something)
so that the open / close event is more pronounced
(and easier to detect)

obtaiaining the desired valve Clearance(s)
will be made a lot easier due to THESE babies
(below, courtesy of Ebay)

I scored these handy items from T. RUTLANDS (below)
at a little over $100
I went with the aftermarket route
as the 'official Ferrari Tool was over $1000
(just too ludicrious)

This Tool has a 'stubby' shape
(bronze wedge on R)
so that it can be used on the V8 Motor
'in situ' as it were, on the forward Cylinder Bank
when the motor is still in the car
(V12 Tool is longer, like a File with a Handle)

only problem was that the 'moon' shaped 'Tool'
had too pronounced a curve

so that it would just slide out and not stay wedged in there
(like it is supposed to)

so I modifed the profile and made it more of a paralell shape
(rather than a taper)

this now works like a 'charm-ola'

(I can post pics of the Valve Shim / Clearance procedure
if any body wants to see it)

mcmichael · Post by **mcmichael** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:51 pm

For what it’s worth, my experience with cam timing was highly rewarding if a little unorthodox. The marks on my cams most definitely do not line up when the cams are properly timed. The passenger side does, but the driver’s side does not.

I pulled the valve covers off of my 330 GTC to adjust the valves and to simply take a look. At tdc #1, the marks on both of the cams lined up quite well with the marks on their respective cam caps. BOTH right and left bank marks were lined up at tdc #1… But, when cranked forward 60 degrees to tdc #7, something didn’t look right—the driver’s side cam was advanced. At first I thought it was advanced 60 degrees, thinking that the driver’s side cam was intended to be set on its marks at tdc #7, rather than tdc #1 as mine was (and as the Ferrari shop manual procedure states it should be). Dima Elgin (of Elgin Cams), who is the most knowledgeable engine guy I know, calmly told me an engine running with one cam 60 degrees advanced was not possible—the intake valves would hit the pistons and it would backfire through the carbs. I’d had my car 8 or 10 months, and it had run fine, I thought. I mean, it was a Ferrari!

Dima was right; After a bit of checking and double checking, it turned out that the left bank cam (cyls 7-12) was not advanced 60 degrees, it was only advanced 27 degrees. Yes, twenty-seven crankshaft degrees. Ultimately, the marks on the drivers side cam were no where near lined up at either #1 or #7 tdc. How did this happen? I have no idea. Both cams measure out--duration and lift--as 330 GTC cams, as specified in the 330 GTC factory shop manual (the one translated by Dr. Angelo Wallace).

OK, the high points of my method.

I timed the cams with the engine in the car, on jack stands, in my (small) garage.

I created a degree wheel (oops, goniometer) in AutoCad, printed it, cut it out, and stuck it to the front pulley with little magnets. At about 5.75 inches (the pulley OD), it is fairly small, but the degree graduations are about .050 inches apart. With a sharp pointer, plus or minus half-degree readings are easy. As the cams adjust in four degree increments, I felt this was close enough. I used the TDC marking on the flywheel. I did not do a positive stop confirmation of TDC, but I’m satisfied it is very close.

I put a dial indicator on both valves of cyl. # 7 for the driver’s side cam, later both valves of the #1 cyl. Then I adjusted each valve to a little less than zero clearance, meaning the valve was held off the seat. This way, the cam timing event we’re looking for—when the valve opens or closes with a clearance of .020”—is indicated when the dial indicator reads .020 inches.

I wanted to be able to read the dial indicator while I was laying on the floor, turning the engine over, and watching the degree wheel and pointer. So, I grabbed an old computer and pointed a web cam at the dial indicator on the intake valve. The monitor was on the floor, under the car with me, and the rest was easy. Turn the crank, watch the degree wheel and valve lift, adjust the cam timing as appropriate, recheck. OK, it took a week or two, but I like to take my time.

As I recall, I ended up with the driver’s side cam a half degree retarded and the other a degree advanced. The proof is in the driving. After both cams were timed properly, the car was a lot faster. And I mean, a LOT faster. As one friend enthusiastically put it (not a car guy—he’d been rather blasé about the Ferrari in general…), “now, your car leaps forward!” And it does!

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