I could use some input. I have a stock exhuast system on my 275 GTS, and its starting to tell me its in need of replacement. Id love to put on a stainless system, but Im fearing the exhaust tone will not be as nice as the stock units produce.
I was at Pebble Beach a few days ago, and bumped into a fellow who had done several of the restorations for the Ferraris on the field. He said that no Stainless system, including Tubi, was worth buying in respect to the tone of the exhuast. He was pretty convincing, and I was a tad sad to hear his comments. However, it appeared he knew what he was talking about.
Id like any and all comments about this issue. Im planning on redoing the system this winter, and need some help for the final decision.
Jim :idea:
Stainless Exhaust systems for 275 GTS
Hi Jim,
Whoever you spoke to is basically right. Although I haven't heard the Tubi system, I own a Stebro system, heard a Timevalve system, and compared these to a stock system. The Stebro is mounted on my 330 America, the Timevalve is on a 330GT 2+2, and the stock system is on another 330 America, so it's as close of a comparison as you're going to get.
The Stebro system sounds deep, and resonates the lower frequencies inside the car, but the sound at the rear is not ideal. Francois has accused it for sounding like a boat exhaust with the "Boub, boub, boub" sound when pipes are emmersed in water.
The Timevalve system is quieter, and resonates the mid-renge freqs. inside the car. At the rear of the car, it's pretty quiet as well, perhaps too quiet. As this system ages, the owner and I think that it's getting a little louder, (wich is a good thing), but it could just be "psycho-acoustics!"
The stock exhaust system is the sound that often hooks us into Ferrari forever. To describe is to list a complex combination of sounds emminating from not only the exhaust, but also the valvetrain. When speakinng strickly exhaust, it has a nice rich tone from inside the car, and a good resonance out back. The frequencies are mostly mid-lows, but a slight cadence can be heard as the exhaust pulses resonate inside the pipes. As the engine revs, it growls and shrieks at the same time.
I'm not sure how much of the science of exhaust they knew back when they designed this system, but they sure got it right. Unfortunately, the people who are reproducing these systems don't understand enough! If we could get an exhaust engineer from one of the big three automakers to give some insight, we'd be in business!
Tom
Whoever you spoke to is basically right. Although I haven't heard the Tubi system, I own a Stebro system, heard a Timevalve system, and compared these to a stock system. The Stebro is mounted on my 330 America, the Timevalve is on a 330GT 2+2, and the stock system is on another 330 America, so it's as close of a comparison as you're going to get.
The Stebro system sounds deep, and resonates the lower frequencies inside the car, but the sound at the rear is not ideal. Francois has accused it for sounding like a boat exhaust with the "Boub, boub, boub" sound when pipes are emmersed in water.
The Timevalve system is quieter, and resonates the mid-renge freqs. inside the car. At the rear of the car, it's pretty quiet as well, perhaps too quiet. As this system ages, the owner and I think that it's getting a little louder, (wich is a good thing), but it could just be "psycho-acoustics!"
The stock exhaust system is the sound that often hooks us into Ferrari forever. To describe is to list a complex combination of sounds emminating from not only the exhaust, but also the valvetrain. When speakinng strickly exhaust, it has a nice rich tone from inside the car, and a good resonance out back. The frequencies are mostly mid-lows, but a slight cadence can be heard as the exhaust pulses resonate inside the pipes. As the engine revs, it growls and shrieks at the same time.
I'm not sure how much of the science of exhaust they knew back when they designed this system, but they sure got it right. Unfortunately, the people who are reproducing these systems don't understand enough! If we could get an exhaust engineer from one of the big three automakers to give some insight, we'd be in business!
Tom
Last edited by tyang on Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'63 330 America #5053
I realized I made some mistakes on my earlier post, so please re-read it as I've made the corrections. It's the Stebro System that I have, and it has the low "motor boat" sound at the rear.
Bluecat49, Remember what I do for a living, I'm an audio engineer, so I've spent a lot of time analyzing "the sound!"
I also want everyone to realize that sounds are very subjective. There are certain TRUTHS, but much of it is personal taste. Our commonality is the love for the Ferrari sound, but when someone says the SS systems don't sound as good, it's in comparison to either a memory, or an ideal that cannot be faulted. We in the business blame this on "Psycho acoustics." I've never heard a new stock exhaust, only ones with 30 or 40 years of age. The baffles rust, or fall out, and the fiberglass disinitergrates. Much of this adds to a sound that may be hard to replicate in a new exhaust.
Your closest choice to the stock sound would be to go with an Ansa system made from mild steel, but the limited use and amount of condensation that collects inside these exhaust, these tend to rust out.
If I had to make a Stainless Steel recommendation, I would go with the Timevalve. I've seen their facilites, and they stand behind their product.
Tom
Bluecat49, Remember what I do for a living, I'm an audio engineer, so I've spent a lot of time analyzing "the sound!"
I also want everyone to realize that sounds are very subjective. There are certain TRUTHS, but much of it is personal taste. Our commonality is the love for the Ferrari sound, but when someone says the SS systems don't sound as good, it's in comparison to either a memory, or an ideal that cannot be faulted. We in the business blame this on "Psycho acoustics." I've never heard a new stock exhaust, only ones with 30 or 40 years of age. The baffles rust, or fall out, and the fiberglass disinitergrates. Much of this adds to a sound that may be hard to replicate in a new exhaust.
Your closest choice to the stock sound would be to go with an Ansa system made from mild steel, but the limited use and amount of condensation that collects inside these exhaust, these tend to rust out.
If I had to make a Stainless Steel recommendation, I would go with the Timevalve. I've seen their facilites, and they stand behind their product.
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Tom:
I had a long discussion with the shop owner in CA who installed my new exhaust system; we compared the relative merits of Ansa and Timevalve and I opted for the SS Timevalve at a 30% premium. He told me what you have essentially said, that condensation in a non stainless system would eat away at it no matter how well the car is kept out of the elements. I think I remember you relating that Francois Sicard had a bucket of rusted out non-SS exhaust stuff behind his shop. That was probably in the back of my mind as well when I decided on the SS.
That last post was merely in jest; if the SS system is a compromise between the best sound and longevity, I'll take it. When all the temps are up to operating level, my V12 plays like a pipe organ. I'm definitely not dissatisfied!
I had a long discussion with the shop owner in CA who installed my new exhaust system; we compared the relative merits of Ansa and Timevalve and I opted for the SS Timevalve at a 30% premium. He told me what you have essentially said, that condensation in a non stainless system would eat away at it no matter how well the car is kept out of the elements. I think I remember you relating that Francois Sicard had a bucket of rusted out non-SS exhaust stuff behind his shop. That was probably in the back of my mind as well when I decided on the SS.
That last post was merely in jest; if the SS system is a compromise between the best sound and longevity, I'll take it. When all the temps are up to operating level, my V12 plays like a pipe organ. I'm definitely not dissatisfied!
Current: 1983 308 GTS
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
Tom---I have priced out an Ansa system now, looks like Id be waiting til lat Sept to actually get it. One thing, I thought that the Ansa system was what was considered the "stock" system now. Is that correct, or is there a system actually being produced and sold by Ferrari for vintage cars at this point ?
Jim
Jim
