5053's internal engine number request

Post by **tyang** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:45 pm

Hi Tom,

1798-628

Tom (Yang)

Post by **tyang** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:29 pm

Hi Tom,

I took those numbers I gave to Kerry Chesbro for his registry, but that was a while ago. I'll try to look for pictures I took of the block before I installed the motor.

Tom

David Booth · Post by **David Booth** » Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:17 pm

Hi Tom - you didn't ask, but I'm volunteering the information for my 330 America motor - #5033GT. On the top of the block casting, below where the intake manifolds would bolt on, there appears 209-100041. Sound like what you're looking for?

Michael Greenspan · Post by **Michael Greenspan** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:46 am

Boy oh boy the fun of telling your internal numbers - 4969, the second 330 America built (and I think the 330 America right before Tom's), has a motor number of 1862 / 62 E. On the build sheet the E is not included and the motor is listed as a 209/B. How does the 209 / B differ from a real 209 engine. Also - how is it that your motor number is 1720 and mine is 1862?? Were they stockpiling the engines and working in a last in first out mode when assembling the cars?

kare · Post by **kare** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:05 pm

[quote="David Booth"]Hi Tom - you didn't ask, but I'm volunteering the information for my 330 America motor - #5033GT. On the top of the block casting, below where the intake manifolds would bolt on, there appears 209-100041. Sound like what you're looking for?[/quote]

Look carefully around area where the chassis number stamp is (on engine block). Internal engine numer may be located as high up as right behind the last cylinder and yes, a lonely number like "2" or "4" may be difficult to be recognized as a numero interno, but that is what I expect for your engine if it is a "real" 209.

And yes, this is very exciting and yes, I'm holding my breath!!!

Best wishes, Kare

PS. may it also be noted that on 30/JAN/96 I sent my first mail to Steven Cook's Ferrari mailing list asking among many other things that where on earth are all 250/GTE owners on this planet. David was one of the people who replied "were hiding here, under the rocks, don't get rolled over by those 308-people, they're EVERYWHERE!". More than 8 years has passed and it is really a pleasure to see some of you old friends around!!!!

Michael Greenspan · Post by **Michael Greenspan** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:37 am

Hi Tom and Kare:

I looked again at the build sheets (The car is at Francois after 1500 happy miles, and I am not nearby) I found that they list the following:
(please pardon the misspellings the PDF is not very clear, and I know no Italian)

On the page labeled - FOGLIO MONTAGGIO MOTORE

Autotelaio Tipo: 575
Motore Tipo: 209/B
Matricola N. 4969 GT
N. Interno: 1862/62

Basamento: 209/1000032/33
Coppa Olio: 209/111180
Albero Motore: 209/12445
Bielle: 209/14725

There are more 209/ numbers for what I think are other components like Coperchi If either of you want them I will be happy to get them.

Michael

kare · Post by **kare** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:34 am

As far as I know, only chassis, body, engine, gearbox and rear axle have individual numbers.

All other numbers must be part numbers, which usually take format 209/12345 where "209" is the type of the main group (engine/chassis/whatever) the part was originally designed for and "12345" is the part number.

Meanwhile they may reveal many interesting details about how these cars were designed and built, I don't have the time to start collecting and analyzing them. I am already inte health foods and sports so that I would live long enough to be able to finnish all my ongoing research projects and it's supposed to be just another hobby...

Best wishes, Kare

David Booth · Post by **David Booth** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:52 pm

Got it. The number "216" is stamped on what I call the clutch skirt, just behind the last cylinder on that bank and above the engine number stamp (5033), right where Kare told me to look for it. The previous number string is cast into the block surface and this one is stamped.

kare · Post by **kare** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:28 pm

[quote="David Booth"]Got it. The number "216" is stamped on what I call the clutch skirt, just behind the last cylinder on that bank and above the engine number stamp (5033), right where Kare told me to look for it. The previous number string is cast into the block surface and this one is stamped.[/quote]

I think your number belongs to 209-engine series and I find it a bit surpricing to have engine #216 in one of the very first cars probably built with this type of engine. I, as usual, have a wild theory building up in my head.

I believe engine numbers were stamped on blocks as soon as the casting cooled down, was checked and sent to the machine shop. This is why they stamped the engine number on rough surface. This also means that all engine numbers do not exist as some blocks must have been scrapped during and after machining. Usually this is because of porosity, small holes or so called ratcaves coming to light during machining. These types
of faults are also typical for new castings. When machine shop reports these problems to the foundry engineer, he usually changes the casting set-up and the problem goes away. How do I know? I have a m. sc. in
foundry engineering :o)

So maybe they intended to start building 209-engine for all of the Americas, but it turned difficult to get the blocks done in time. Soon they would have 4-litre engine parts all over the place - but no blocks. Maybe converting 128-blocks for 4-litre internals was a plan B (or Plan 209/B) to buy some more time to solve the problem.

OK. What would happen next? Foundry floor would be filled with blocks. The engineer would report that casting set-up has been changed in a way which should fix the problem. He would want machine shop to do a few blocks from the latest batch to see if they are ok. Maybe numbering was already running a little over 200 (meaning a little over 100 cast blocks, they only used even numbers). When block #216 turns out to be OK, it goes to the assembly line and is put into 330 America 5033. When other blocks also turn out to be OK, the engineer is satisfied and goes home.

Machine shop now starts to go through the remaining castings sending some to assembly line and scrapping those with ratholes and other faults.

I am of course only guessing, but I believe this is pretty close to what may have happened when Daytona production started. 50 very early engine blocks seem to have vanished into thin air. Then things settle down and they build pretty accurately one car per one engine number used.

Best wishes, Kare

PS. Tom, are you saying you suspect your engine 4973-1720/62E to be a restamp? The number fits well into sequence, so maybe they messed things up at the factory when they started to convert 128-blocks into 4-litre engines? Have you checked with the factory what the build sheets say?

David Booth · Post by **David Booth** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:45 pm

Let me see if I'm getting this straight. I've read somewhere that the 330 Americas supposedly had an engine that's not really a 250 Tipo 128 nor is it a 330 Tipo 209, thereby making it extremely difficult to get parts. So what's coming to light here is confirmation of that story - although typically only half correct?

What I'm getting here is that the very first 330 Americas were equipped with a Tipo 128 motor that was basically bored out to four liters, and the later cars (mine was the exact middle of the 330 America production run, btw) got a motor that's exactly like the later Tipo 209s in every respect but the motor mounts, maybe?

TS: can you please comment on this, since the parts I have for my engine rebuild on 5033GT are for a 330, and I'd hate to dive into a rebuild with the wrong stuff.

Kare's explanation of how the two types shared the same production run makes sense, but the scenario I had always sort of dreamed up for the reason the 330 Americas existed in the first place was a little more romantic. I had always imagined that the first of the Tipo 209 motors were ready and waiting, while Pininfarina was behind schedule completing the bodies. So the Old Man, always eager for any way possible to cover the checks the racing department was writing, had Grugliasco dash off a further 50 GTE bodies and palmed them off on Ferrari North America since he knew Chinetti would take them and his check wouldn't bounce.

So what seems more likely, at least in light of this discussion, is that the America was planned to be an interim car all along, maybe simply filling up the sales downtime between the last shipments of GTEs and the expected debut of the four-headlight 330? And the cars with the four-liter Tipo 128 blocks were a response to teething problems with the 209s, since the America had been promised as a four-liter powerplant.

I'd really be interested in how the two engines differ, with respect to the parts, and how in the dickens, if Tom has one of the extremely rare four-liter 128 motors, he (or Francois) got it screwed back together and operating properly. Seems like one of those scenarios where a rebuild would be a recipe for disaster.

Post by **330GT** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:22 am

The three build sheets I have for 330 Americas specify that the engine tipo is 209/B. The 330 GT ones have 209 (early) or 209/65 (later) for the engine tipo.