:cry: Well, it was in my longrange game plan, anyway . . . just hadn't thought I'd have to do it SO SOON! My engine has broken an exhaust valve . . . and that means taking her all the way down!
I guess the good news is that I've found a wonderful mechanic . . . Jens Paulson . . . who will handle the entire process. He expects it to take at least 6 months (perhaps even much longer) . . . based on parts availability. Definitely, I will have the job done properly . . . once Jens is into it that deep, it's not the time take short cuts, or try to save money.
[color=red]If anyone has, or knows of available parts for a 365 twin-cam engine . . . please contact me, we'll need all the usual items, and maybe more.[/color]
The way I'm going to look at this, is that my engine compartment was an area the I got knocked down a few points at the recent FCA National Concours. This should put me over the top, to get a platinum award at next years Concorso Italiano.
Wish me luck, Bill
365GT2+2 Engine Re-build
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tyang
Bill,
Jens comes highly recommended by Tom Shaughnessy, who had him do some tricky work on a Lampredi V-12.
Someone else to contact is fellow message border Zac Dugger. He is listed on the owner's page and did the rebuild of his 365 GT 2+2 motor as well as one he sold me for a project car. He rebuilds engines and gives a warranty. He is in the San Diego area.
Good Luck!
Todd
Jens comes highly recommended by Tom Shaughnessy, who had him do some tricky work on a Lampredi V-12.
Someone else to contact is fellow message border Zac Dugger. He is listed on the owner's page and did the rebuild of his 365 GT 2+2 motor as well as one he sold me for a project car. He rebuilds engines and gives a warranty. He is in the San Diego area.
Good Luck!
Todd
Bill
I did a 365 twin cam engine last summer. Also some shopping for parts and I really did not have any trouble. My rebuild did not included new pistons, which significantly cut down on cost – although I have heard that there are Japanese pistons available that are actually better than the Ferrari originals.
I did most of the mechanical work – a “end over end” type engine stand is highly desireable.
Some Parts I purchased that I remember.
Stainless valves, silicon bronze guides and modern valve seals $1700 @Concours Auto in CA. I was very happy with this combination – Concours indicated that this combination should be good for 100K miles – This stuff is buried so far into the engine that no concours judge will ever know it has been upgraded.
I had my cylinder head work done locally by a very reputable craftsman. It included cam installation and setting up the valve clearances. $1500.
Hastings Piston Rings $120 – I have about 8000 miles on the engine, good consistant compression, no oil burinig. The top ring is molly, second is cast, 3 piece BMW style Oil ring.
2 Main bearings - $80 - Almost all my bearings showed no ware and “plastie gauged” at 2 – 2.5 thousandth
Gasket set $700 at Rutlands – Make sure you shop for head gaskets – Ferrari wanted $400 each. The gasket set will include all those copper washer/gaskets.
Chain Tensioner for oil and water pump $60 Rutlands
I purchased some 8mm main bearing studs from Rutlands – My manual indicated 35# torque on these studs. This is too high – your mechanic will know this – I didn’t at first so after stretching one, I bought some to experiment with – 24#s was my answer.
Ignition wires from Rutlands $120 – Their original but next time, because I drive the car, I will make up my own set using BMW style spark plug connectors and modern wire.
I scribed a mark in the harmonic balancer and fabricated a timing plate that I bolted on to the front of the engine with associated marks so I could time the engine from a normal position. I would recommend the addition for non-show cars. (of course you could always pull the plate off for shows.)
Good luck
Aaron
I did a 365 twin cam engine last summer. Also some shopping for parts and I really did not have any trouble. My rebuild did not included new pistons, which significantly cut down on cost – although I have heard that there are Japanese pistons available that are actually better than the Ferrari originals.
I did most of the mechanical work – a “end over end” type engine stand is highly desireable.
Some Parts I purchased that I remember.
Stainless valves, silicon bronze guides and modern valve seals $1700 @Concours Auto in CA. I was very happy with this combination – Concours indicated that this combination should be good for 100K miles – This stuff is buried so far into the engine that no concours judge will ever know it has been upgraded.
I had my cylinder head work done locally by a very reputable craftsman. It included cam installation and setting up the valve clearances. $1500.
Hastings Piston Rings $120 – I have about 8000 miles on the engine, good consistant compression, no oil burinig. The top ring is molly, second is cast, 3 piece BMW style Oil ring.
2 Main bearings - $80 - Almost all my bearings showed no ware and “plastie gauged” at 2 – 2.5 thousandth
Gasket set $700 at Rutlands – Make sure you shop for head gaskets – Ferrari wanted $400 each. The gasket set will include all those copper washer/gaskets.
Chain Tensioner for oil and water pump $60 Rutlands
I purchased some 8mm main bearing studs from Rutlands – My manual indicated 35# torque on these studs. This is too high – your mechanic will know this – I didn’t at first so after stretching one, I bought some to experiment with – 24#s was my answer.
Ignition wires from Rutlands $120 – Their original but next time, because I drive the car, I will make up my own set using BMW style spark plug connectors and modern wire.
I scribed a mark in the harmonic balancer and fabricated a timing plate that I bolted on to the front of the engine with associated marks so I could time the engine from a normal position. I would recommend the addition for non-show cars. (of course you could always pull the plate off for shows.)
Good luck
Aaron
Update . . .
:? Well . . . my car is with Jens Paulson now. Almost exactly 100mi from my home. He'll spend the next few days removing the trans and engine, so he can do a thorough examination. Then we'll get together a discuss what has to be done. I'll keep my fingers crossed!
The car will then be shipped back to my house during the overhaul. I can spend the next 6 months, or so, working on the engine compartment.
One thing is for sure . . . I want the engine done right . . . and Jens may as well perform internal upgrades where possible. Why not take advantage of the latest technology, as long as it doesn't effect the cars concours presentation.
I'll keep everyone informed.
Bill
The car will then be shipped back to my house during the overhaul. I can spend the next 6 months, or so, working on the engine compartment.
One thing is for sure . . . I want the engine done right . . . and Jens may as well perform internal upgrades where possible. Why not take advantage of the latest technology, as long as it doesn't effect the cars concours presentation.
I'll keep everyone informed.
Bill
Engine update . . .
Jens has had time to make his initial analysis . . .
I broke an exhaust valve; which, in turn, demolished the piston head, bent the piston rod, and scored the cylinder wall. The valve head, and pieces of the piston were all the way into the oil pan!
Fortunately, the crank is unharmed, and there appears to be no further damage. He'll have the full analysis by the weekend.
Check out the missing piston head, and the pieces of it, in these pictures:
I'll report the final conditon of the engine . . . and what work Jens will do, after we've conferred further.
Bill
<img border="1" src="http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/P000856s_small.jpg" xthumbnail-orig-image="http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/P000856s.jpg" width="240" height="180">
I broke an exhaust valve; which, in turn, demolished the piston head, bent the piston rod, and scored the cylinder wall. The valve head, and pieces of the piston were all the way into the oil pan!
Fortunately, the crank is unharmed, and there appears to be no further damage. He'll have the full analysis by the weekend.
Check out the missing piston head, and the pieces of it, in these pictures:
I'll report the final conditon of the engine . . . and what work Jens will do, after we've conferred further.
Bill
<img border="1" src="http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/P000856s_small.jpg" xthumbnail-orig-image="http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/P000856s.jpg" width="240" height="180">
You must be one lucky person ...
... normally this would have caused a rod to poke its way out the side of the expensive block. Thus while it looks bad it could have been soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much worse.
I wouldn't buy any lotto tickets for awhile as I think you have used up your luck for this year :D
Pete
I wouldn't buy any lotto tickets for awhile as I think you have used up your luck for this year :D
Pete
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tyang
Hi Bill,
Your second image didn't show up, so here it is.
Tom
<img border="1" src="http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/P000857s_small.jpg" xthumbnail-orig-image="http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/P000857s.jpg" width="240" height="180">
Your second image didn't show up, so here it is.
Tom
<img border="1" src="http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/P000857s_small.jpg" xthumbnail-orig-image="http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/P000857s.jpg" width="240" height="180">
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tyang
Valve failure...
This is a great question, Jim . . . one that I posed to Jens Paulson. He said it could be any number of things (mere part failure), but one of the most likely is poor lubrication, brought on by the oil channels becoming clogged . . . sometimes merely from age; other times from un-expert engine re-building.
I'm sure he has much more to add. As soon as I hear from him on the final analysis of my engine, I'll ask him to elaborate further. I may not have remembered exactly all the details.
Bill
I'm sure he has much more to add. As soon as I hear from him on the final analysis of my engine, I'll ask him to elaborate further. I may not have remembered exactly all the details.
Bill
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tyang
Hello All,
A dropped valve can come from a number of things, and there are a bunch of theories. Bad lubrication is certainly one of them.
Bill, I know this might be painful, but can you share what happened before the engine dropped the valve? Did you notice a drop in oil pressure?
Overheating can also weaken the valve, causing it to break off at a later time. Over reving is another cause. Poor engine assembly can cause the piston to hit the valves at high revs, breaking them as well.
If you haven't seen this picture on the website, here's another dropped valve.
<img SRC="http://www.tomyang.net/cars/holedpiston.jpg" height=354 width=350>
A dropped valve can come from a number of things, and there are a bunch of theories. Bad lubrication is certainly one of them.
Bill, I know this might be painful, but can you share what happened before the engine dropped the valve? Did you notice a drop in oil pressure?
Overheating can also weaken the valve, causing it to break off at a later time. Over reving is another cause. Poor engine assembly can cause the piston to hit the valves at high revs, breaking them as well.
If you haven't seen this picture on the website, here's another dropped valve.
<img SRC="http://www.tomyang.net/cars/holedpiston.jpg" height=354 width=350>
Valve failure...
Tom . . . my wife and I were on our way to a Ferrari Club event, at the Peterson Automotive Museum. We were about 2/3 of the way through our 60 mile trip, cruising at around 60mph, up the Interstate 5 towards downtown LA.
Suddenly, out of no where, I heard a metal sound (like running over something, that then hit the underside of the car). The sound did not continue immediately, but I let off the gas, so I could listen better. About a minute later, the sound returned, but louder . . . and this time definitely from the engine compartment. It now sounded like metal marbles rattling around, so I immediately pulled off the freeway and into a parking lot. Of course, I shut down the engine . . . and called AAA. Thank-goodness for the "Plus" membership. It was about 45 miles back home, on the flat bed.
I had thoroughly scanned the engine visually, in the parking lot . . . no fluid on the ground, or anywhere . . . nothing unusual. When AAA dropped off the car in my drive way, there was no way we could push it, slightly upgrade into the garage, because of it's weight. So . . . I quickly started the engine (it came to life as usual), drove it 20ft. into it's space of honor, and shut it down immediately. The marbles sound was present, perhaps even more.
When Jens came to look at her, a week later . . . she wouldn't even crank . . . NO movement at all! Apparently a piece of the piston had wedged between the crank and engine block, to lock her up.
I'm a very thorough driver, when it comes to my baby. Always check the fluids, warm her up carefully, keep an eye on the gauges, don't abuse her in anyway. However, I do use the fairly full tach range when driving . . . up to 5000-6000rpm (lower gears) at times, when smoothly accelerating.
There was nothing I could see, retrospectively, that would have been a warning. This kind of thing really proves the often repeated advice . . . "Buying a Ferrari is the least expensive part of owning one!"
That's the sad story . . . but I guess, as Pete said, I'm very lucky.
Now I'm looking forward to getting her back with a properly re-built engine, ready for some fun driving!
Bill
ps - I might preface this story with the fact that the previuos owner had "claimed" to have had the engine "completely" rebuilt, just before putting her on the market. He even used the phrase "blue-printed", in his ad.
Some rebuild!!! Good for an amazing 3000 miles!!
Suddenly, out of no where, I heard a metal sound (like running over something, that then hit the underside of the car). The sound did not continue immediately, but I let off the gas, so I could listen better. About a minute later, the sound returned, but louder . . . and this time definitely from the engine compartment. It now sounded like metal marbles rattling around, so I immediately pulled off the freeway and into a parking lot. Of course, I shut down the engine . . . and called AAA. Thank-goodness for the "Plus" membership. It was about 45 miles back home, on the flat bed.
I had thoroughly scanned the engine visually, in the parking lot . . . no fluid on the ground, or anywhere . . . nothing unusual. When AAA dropped off the car in my drive way, there was no way we could push it, slightly upgrade into the garage, because of it's weight. So . . . I quickly started the engine (it came to life as usual), drove it 20ft. into it's space of honor, and shut it down immediately. The marbles sound was present, perhaps even more.
When Jens came to look at her, a week later . . . she wouldn't even crank . . . NO movement at all! Apparently a piece of the piston had wedged between the crank and engine block, to lock her up.
I'm a very thorough driver, when it comes to my baby. Always check the fluids, warm her up carefully, keep an eye on the gauges, don't abuse her in anyway. However, I do use the fairly full tach range when driving . . . up to 5000-6000rpm (lower gears) at times, when smoothly accelerating.
There was nothing I could see, retrospectively, that would have been a warning. This kind of thing really proves the often repeated advice . . . "Buying a Ferrari is the least expensive part of owning one!"
That's the sad story . . . but I guess, as Pete said, I'm very lucky.
Now I'm looking forward to getting her back with a properly re-built engine, ready for some fun driving!
Bill
ps - I might preface this story with the fact that the previuos owner had "claimed" to have had the engine "completely" rebuilt, just before putting her on the market. He even used the phrase "blue-printed", in his ad.
Some rebuild!!! Good for an amazing 3000 miles!!
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tyang
Hi Bill,
Thanks for sharing the story.
The key is in the last part. Someone rebuilt the engine, and who knows what was done!
It sounds like this rebuild is in good hands, so you'll certainly get longer lasting results.
My engine was "rebuilt" by some mechanic as well, but we decided to take it apart to play it safe. The errors in the assembly and measurements of critical parts was astounding. Even though I had the added cost of an engine rebuild, it was better than having my engine blow up from incompetence!
Keep us posted!
Tom
Thanks for sharing the story.
The key is in the last part. Someone rebuilt the engine, and who knows what was done!
It sounds like this rebuild is in good hands, so you'll certainly get longer lasting results.
My engine was "rebuilt" by some mechanic as well, but we decided to take it apart to play it safe. The errors in the assembly and measurements of critical parts was astounding. Even though I had the added cost of an engine rebuild, it was better than having my engine blow up from incompetence!
Keep us posted!
Tom