... the valve not seating correctly and thus getting too hot and the head falling off, or loosing bits until a big enough one caused the excitement by being hammered by the piston, etc. This would be my guess at the cause of your problem ... was the engine performing well on all cylinders before this happened, when was the last time you did a compression test? ... not that it matters anymore :)
This can happen if the valve clearances get too tight and thus the valve does not seat correctly and thus does not cool down as much as it should. A lot of the heat on an exhaust valve is transferred back to the cylinder head via the seat and the rest is via the valve stem. With overhead cam engines where the valve clearance is difficult to set (and expensive) it is common for them to end up a little out, i.e. the seat or valve wears thus the valve clearance reduces. Eventually the valve will stop seating and burn.
Clearances can end up growing if the camshaft lobs or followers wear ... this can be caused by oil starvation or just old age, but it is far better for the clearances to be on the large side than the other.
I remember once watching classic car racing when a Mercedes saloon (can't remember the type, but is was straight 6 engineed) spat a valve head at me out of the side exhaust. It just sat there fuming on the grass in front of me, and in the mangled shape you could still see the valve seat ... amazingly the car kept going I think to the end of the race :)
Pete
365GT2+2 Engine Re-build
Update . . .
Hello everyone . . .
My car (minus engine, trans & radiator), is back at my home. Jens thought it best to store the car with me, since the engine work will likely take several months.
Here is his analysis: destroyed one piston & damaged another; bent one piston rod, scored two cylinder sleeves. Block will need a little welding, and crank will need some work. All exhaust valves to be replaced (not sure of the intakes valves yet) Of course, new rings, guides, gaskets, etc.
I will visit Jens shop next Monday, so I can see the engine completely disassembled. I'll then know the complete story.
Here is the pic of the destroyed piston, with slightly bent rod . . . valve head is in lower right corner:
His estimate at this time is $10-12,000. Perhaps $15 thou, if we decide to do extra stuff. He asked me if I was on any heart medication, before telling me . . . but I had sort of rough guessed in this area.
This would be MUCH more, if I used a mechanic working in a typical shop . . . but Jens has his own shop at his home, and dabbles with interesting older cars like mine, and the completely destroyed/burned 250GT Spyder engine&trans&etc that he is resurrecting for Tom Shaughnessy.
My wife is in more shock than me,
Bill
<img border="1" src="http://members.cox.net/dianerose/P0011322c.JPG">
My car (minus engine, trans & radiator), is back at my home. Jens thought it best to store the car with me, since the engine work will likely take several months.
Here is his analysis: destroyed one piston & damaged another; bent one piston rod, scored two cylinder sleeves. Block will need a little welding, and crank will need some work. All exhaust valves to be replaced (not sure of the intakes valves yet) Of course, new rings, guides, gaskets, etc.
I will visit Jens shop next Monday, so I can see the engine completely disassembled. I'll then know the complete story.
Here is the pic of the destroyed piston, with slightly bent rod . . . valve head is in lower right corner:
His estimate at this time is $10-12,000. Perhaps $15 thou, if we decide to do extra stuff. He asked me if I was on any heart medication, before telling me . . . but I had sort of rough guessed in this area.
This would be MUCH more, if I used a mechanic working in a typical shop . . . but Jens has his own shop at his home, and dabbles with interesting older cars like mine, and the completely destroyed/burned 250GT Spyder engine&trans&etc that he is resurrecting for Tom Shaughnessy.
My wife is in more shock than me,
Bill
<img border="1" src="http://members.cox.net/dianerose/P0011322c.JPG">
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tyang
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the pictures and the story. I fixed the image to load below your text. I'm still trying to figure out why it does this, but in the future, could you add the link of the picture at the end of your post? I'll try to figure out why the board does weird things, and why it only allows one picture per post!
Only to Ferrari people will this sound right, but $10-12K is pretty cheap! Expect small additions that will push it to $15K, but you'll still be getting a good price. I've heard of some people shopping around for prices on engine rebuilds that are 50% or more than what you are being quoted from the big Ferrari shops!
Just think of the time you have now to nicely detail the engine compartment!
Good luck!
Tom
Thanks for the pictures and the story. I fixed the image to load below your text. I'm still trying to figure out why it does this, but in the future, could you add the link of the picture at the end of your post? I'll try to figure out why the board does weird things, and why it only allows one picture per post!
Only to Ferrari people will this sound right, but $10-12K is pretty cheap! Expect small additions that will push it to $15K, but you'll still be getting a good price. I've heard of some people shopping around for prices on engine rebuilds that are 50% or more than what you are being quoted from the big Ferrari shops!
Just think of the time you have now to nicely detail the engine compartment!
Good luck!
Tom
Reason for failure . . .
I forgot to mention Jens Paulson's thoughts:
Obviously, routine part failure can not be over-looked . . . especially for a 33yr old engine. It definitely looked like the prior rebuild used as many of the original parts as possible. The mechanic did put in new rings . . . but NOT of the highest quality. The previous owner was definitely trying to keep the price LOW. If you look at the picture of the destroyed piston above, you'll see that the ring wasn't a single piece, as the best ones are.
However . . . Jens feels that the most likely reason is improper re-jetting, after having the engine de-smogged, during the earlier rebuild. The injector tubes were cut-off, and the smog pump clutch disabled. Jens said that the engine should have been re-jetted/re-tuned for these modifications . . . but that often this is not done properly. Along with old valves . . . not a good combination!
It's also possible that the failure was brought on by clogged carburetor jets to this pair of cyclinders. In whcih case, they would not get enough fuel, and run really hot!
In any case, the valve failed at the point where the head and shaft were joined, during manufacture. He says that the shafts are spun at 20,000rpm in one direction . . . the heads spun at 20,000rpm in the opposite direction . . . and then friction joined. The tremendous tempurature created during this process, causes a fusing of the parts.
If the valve ever gets this hot during operation, then the head can come apart. Of course, this should NEVER happen, when the engine is behaving properly.
I'll keep everyone posted, as the rebuild takes shape,
Bill
ps - here is a pic of the proper Ferrari oil ring (on the right), and the one taken out of my oil pan:
<img border="1" src="http://members.cox.net/dianerose/P0011332cs.JPG">
Obviously, routine part failure can not be over-looked . . . especially for a 33yr old engine. It definitely looked like the prior rebuild used as many of the original parts as possible. The mechanic did put in new rings . . . but NOT of the highest quality. The previous owner was definitely trying to keep the price LOW. If you look at the picture of the destroyed piston above, you'll see that the ring wasn't a single piece, as the best ones are.
However . . . Jens feels that the most likely reason is improper re-jetting, after having the engine de-smogged, during the earlier rebuild. The injector tubes were cut-off, and the smog pump clutch disabled. Jens said that the engine should have been re-jetted/re-tuned for these modifications . . . but that often this is not done properly. Along with old valves . . . not a good combination!
It's also possible that the failure was brought on by clogged carburetor jets to this pair of cyclinders. In whcih case, they would not get enough fuel, and run really hot!
In any case, the valve failed at the point where the head and shaft were joined, during manufacture. He says that the shafts are spun at 20,000rpm in one direction . . . the heads spun at 20,000rpm in the opposite direction . . . and then friction joined. The tremendous tempurature created during this process, causes a fusing of the parts.
If the valve ever gets this hot during operation, then the head can come apart. Of course, this should NEVER happen, when the engine is behaving properly.
I'll keep everyone posted, as the rebuild takes shape,
Bill
ps - here is a pic of the proper Ferrari oil ring (on the right), and the one taken out of my oil pan:
<img border="1" src="http://members.cox.net/dianerose/P0011332cs.JPG">
-
tyang
-
Bernard Fahimian
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:15 am
Hi Bill, i am very sorry you have to rebuild the engine again. I saw your car at the FCA meet in Century City and was very impressed by it. I have been told that the type 209 and 245 engines are among the best engines Ferrari made and they achieve very high mileage between overhauls. In any case my question is since i have also disconnected the air pump and capped the tubes in my US spec 365, am i going to experience problems with the engine? I did not change the valves but the carbs were rejeted.........Bernard
Hi all . . .
Bernard . . . Thanks for the compliment on my car(we got a 93 score on her). When you de-smog our cars (disabling the smog pump clutch, and cutting off the injection tubes), you then need to re-jet the carbs, and do a good retune of the engine. If you're going to take the car on the track, and let her really go, you need to do a much more customized tuning for the exact way you'll be driving. An expert should do that. So, it sounds like you've done what's necessary, already.
Tom . . . I checked with Jens about the spark plugs. They were too covered with oil for an accurate reading. Apparently, the prior rebuild used less expensive gaskets, which didn't seal properly . . . so there was a little oil and coolant in the cylinders.
Aaron . . . Yes, $12k IS a great price . . . don't i know!! Jens has his own shop at his home, nearly 100miles from almost anywhere. He is sort of retired, and enjoys dabbling with interesting older Ferraris. He's not in it for the money . . . but for the pleasure and fulfilment. He also knows that his location is not very convenient, but give him the lifesyle he loves! Works for me!!
I'll be driving out there Sunday morning, for a thorough explaination of what happened, and a complete list of what Jens wants to do. We'll discuss whether I want to go beyond a mere rebuild, and go for more performance :-D
Best, Bill
Tom . . . I checked with Jens about the spark plugs. They were too covered with oil for an accurate reading. Apparently, the prior rebuild used less expensive gaskets, which didn't seal properly . . . so there was a little oil and coolant in the cylinders.
Aaron . . . Yes, $12k IS a great price . . . don't i know!! Jens has his own shop at his home, nearly 100miles from almost anywhere. He is sort of retired, and enjoys dabbling with interesting older Ferraris. He's not in it for the money . . . but for the pleasure and fulfilment. He also knows that his location is not very convenient, but give him the lifesyle he loves! Works for me!!
I'll be driving out there Sunday morning, for a thorough explaination of what happened, and a complete list of what Jens wants to do. We'll discuss whether I want to go beyond a mere rebuild, and go for more performance :-D
Best, Bill
More go equals more problems theory
I'm sure you know this already but there is a simply theory that goes like:
More go equals more money and more problems, and can end up with less miles or enjoyment.
It all depends ofcourse in what you intend to do. Thus a careful blue print will tidy things up, but a raise in compression ratio, or wilder cams, bigger carbs, etc. will add stress to an old crankshaft.
Would not want to rely on that amazing luck of yours too many times :)
Your call but I have watched many people, including myself pour too much money into chasing horse-power, even for the track. Even for motor-racing it is far more economical to spend the money on the rest of the car first and make it handle ...
Good luck
Pete
More go equals more money and more problems, and can end up with less miles or enjoyment.
It all depends ofcourse in what you intend to do. Thus a careful blue print will tidy things up, but a raise in compression ratio, or wilder cams, bigger carbs, etc. will add stress to an old crankshaft.
Would not want to rely on that amazing luck of yours too many times :)
Your call but I have watched many people, including myself pour too much money into chasing horse-power, even for the track. Even for motor-racing it is far more economical to spend the money on the rest of the car first and make it handle ...
Good luck
Pete
Good advice . . .
Thanks, Pete . . . Jens seems to have a good sense of balance in this area. What you say about a strengthened upgrade putting stress on an older associated component is something I certainly want to avoid.
When discussing this project with Jens, we'll keep our feet firmly planted in reality! He has already mentioned to me, that some types of "upgrades" provide extremely marginal improvement . . . compared to their cost. Since I am NOT going to go racing with her, I won't be silly.
I'll let you know what he recommends, after I spend Sunday morning with him.
Thanks again, Bill
When discussing this project with Jens, we'll keep our feet firmly planted in reality! He has already mentioned to me, that some types of "upgrades" provide extremely marginal improvement . . . compared to their cost. Since I am NOT going to go racing with her, I won't be silly.
I'll let you know what he recommends, after I spend Sunday morning with him.
Thanks again, Bill
The plan . . .
Hello all,
I traveled the 100mi to Jens Paulson's shop, on Sunday . . . and spent several hours with him. He explained what happened to the engine, and what approach he would like to take, in addressing the repairs.
I've posted pictures, and explanation, from my visit: http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/index.htm
In retropsect, I'm not sure if I could have avoided this problem. I purchased the car from individual known to the FCA; had it inspected by a prominent FCA officer; and got an in-depth report from the mechanic preparing the car for delivery to me. All the problems were deeply hidden within the rebuild, which appeared to be one of the strengths of the car.
Perhaps it is best to accept, that you will only really know as much about your car as you personally experience. Rebuilding the engine, to the highest standards, now gives me the assurance that everything has been done properly.
The car is a lovely example of the 365GT2+2 . . . one which should gain a platinum award at the next Concorso Italiano. I'll have spent plenty of money . . . now, hopefully, I can relax, and really enjoy her!
Bill
I traveled the 100mi to Jens Paulson's shop, on Sunday . . . and spent several hours with him. He explained what happened to the engine, and what approach he would like to take, in addressing the repairs.
I've posted pictures, and explanation, from my visit: http://www.members.cox.net/dianerose/index.htm
In retropsect, I'm not sure if I could have avoided this problem. I purchased the car from individual known to the FCA; had it inspected by a prominent FCA officer; and got an in-depth report from the mechanic preparing the car for delivery to me. All the problems were deeply hidden within the rebuild, which appeared to be one of the strengths of the car.
Perhaps it is best to accept, that you will only really know as much about your car as you personally experience. Rebuilding the engine, to the highest standards, now gives me the assurance that everything has been done properly.
The car is a lovely example of the 365GT2+2 . . . one which should gain a platinum award at the next Concorso Italiano. I'll have spent plenty of money . . . now, hopefully, I can relax, and really enjoy her!
Bill
Who did the rebuild?
Hi group . . .
I've received several personal requests for the name of the "culprit". This brings up an entire line of discussion, which I feel is desirable to initiate.
Realizing that this information is of interest to many, who would like to know who to avoid, I feel the need to be cautious about giving out the name. Apparently, the mechanic DID follow the owner's instructions. Perhaps he made recommendations which the owner vetoed. There is no doubt, that he DID NOT do a thorough, complete re-build . . . as many, top-flight Ferrari mechanics would have insisted upon.
And this is the real issue. Assuming that the quality of the work he did, was competent, at best . . . the only criticism that can be leveled at him, is that he should have declined to have his name associated with the project, under the conditions requested by the owner. I believe, that in ways, this decision process is frequently used by many Ferrari owners, who operate on more limited budgets.
Obviously, any repair can be done to the highest standards . . . approaching the car, as the F1 team would. Everything perfect . . . nothing left to chance! This costs $$$, as we all know. Most owners must be realistic about their finances . . . so compromises are necessary. In my cars instance, the prior owner & mechanic feel into the lower rung of this category. They took the chance that the limited re-build, would hold up long enough, so that the cut corners would not be noticed.
These short cuts and economizations, would eventually be seen, whenever the engine was taken apart, in the future. The prior owner hoped, that this would be long enough down the rode, that nothing would be said. The mechanic, apparently, didn't want to bow out . . . and didn't see any threat to his reputation. He could always say, "That's what he asked for..."
I have no information to lead me to believe that the mechanic actually did BAD work . . . but there is no doubt (if you listen to Jens Paulson), that he was not going nearly as far as he should have, in doing a quality rebuild.
***Jens would have begged out of this job, rather than have his well-known reputation, potentially tarnished.
The mechanic, in question, specializes in Ferrari. But has been drawn into the group of elite owners, in his city, who possess newer cars, and want the work done quickly, so they can get back on the road. He makes more money with these cars . . . and has little time for the older cars, which require a high level of expertise, a lot of time, and much PATIENCE.
Implicating this individual would, perhaps, be too harsh. He didn't, I'm sure, intend to defraud . . . because his customer got exactly what he paid for. My major complaint is towards the prior owner, who actually did mislead me . . . indicating that the car had a totally rebuild ("blue printed") engine. For all of the lawyers out there . . . I did sign an "as is" release, when I took delivery of the car.
Perhaps our best defense against this type of situation, is to start a list of elite, professional mechanics, who enjoy the classic cars . . . and whose reputations are without question. I'm sure most owners, if faced with more complicated mechnical needs, would not hesitate to travel some distance. So, our list does not have to cover every city . . . but rather, give owners options within their region. Jens is 100mi from my home!
Let me know how everyone feels . . . and let's get started on a list that Tom can post. I'll start by adding Jens Paulson, who is fully endorsed by Tom Shaughnessy.
Bill
I've received several personal requests for the name of the "culprit". This brings up an entire line of discussion, which I feel is desirable to initiate.
Realizing that this information is of interest to many, who would like to know who to avoid, I feel the need to be cautious about giving out the name. Apparently, the mechanic DID follow the owner's instructions. Perhaps he made recommendations which the owner vetoed. There is no doubt, that he DID NOT do a thorough, complete re-build . . . as many, top-flight Ferrari mechanics would have insisted upon.
And this is the real issue. Assuming that the quality of the work he did, was competent, at best . . . the only criticism that can be leveled at him, is that he should have declined to have his name associated with the project, under the conditions requested by the owner. I believe, that in ways, this decision process is frequently used by many Ferrari owners, who operate on more limited budgets.
Obviously, any repair can be done to the highest standards . . . approaching the car, as the F1 team would. Everything perfect . . . nothing left to chance! This costs $$$, as we all know. Most owners must be realistic about their finances . . . so compromises are necessary. In my cars instance, the prior owner & mechanic feel into the lower rung of this category. They took the chance that the limited re-build, would hold up long enough, so that the cut corners would not be noticed.
These short cuts and economizations, would eventually be seen, whenever the engine was taken apart, in the future. The prior owner hoped, that this would be long enough down the rode, that nothing would be said. The mechanic, apparently, didn't want to bow out . . . and didn't see any threat to his reputation. He could always say, "That's what he asked for..."
I have no information to lead me to believe that the mechanic actually did BAD work . . . but there is no doubt (if you listen to Jens Paulson), that he was not going nearly as far as he should have, in doing a quality rebuild.
***Jens would have begged out of this job, rather than have his well-known reputation, potentially tarnished.
The mechanic, in question, specializes in Ferrari. But has been drawn into the group of elite owners, in his city, who possess newer cars, and want the work done quickly, so they can get back on the road. He makes more money with these cars . . . and has little time for the older cars, which require a high level of expertise, a lot of time, and much PATIENCE.
Implicating this individual would, perhaps, be too harsh. He didn't, I'm sure, intend to defraud . . . because his customer got exactly what he paid for. My major complaint is towards the prior owner, who actually did mislead me . . . indicating that the car had a totally rebuild ("blue printed") engine. For all of the lawyers out there . . . I did sign an "as is" release, when I took delivery of the car.
Perhaps our best defense against this type of situation, is to start a list of elite, professional mechanics, who enjoy the classic cars . . . and whose reputations are without question. I'm sure most owners, if faced with more complicated mechnical needs, would not hesitate to travel some distance. So, our list does not have to cover every city . . . but rather, give owners options within their region. Jens is 100mi from my home!
Let me know how everyone feels . . . and let's get started on a list that Tom can post. I'll start by adding Jens Paulson, who is fully endorsed by Tom Shaughnessy.
Bill
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tyang
Hi Bill,
I understand your reluctance to not posting the mechanic's name who did the bad rebuild, but I feel that both the mechanic, and previous owner are at fault. The owner was trying to save some money, only to fool the buyer. The mechanic, knowing that his repair would be temporary, should have never accepted the job. Greed plays a part with both, previous owner, and mechanic. If the mechanic is a well known Ferrari mechanic, then he doesn't need work like this to pay his bills. Sure, the owner would have eventually found someone to do this job for him, but at least the Ferrari mechanic's reputation would remain intact.
The flip side to all this is a situation that Francois has told me about. He was once asked to do a tune up on a car to ready it for sale. This involved a valve adjustment, and a few other repairs. Several weeks later, a prospective owner called Francois to ask what kind of work he had done on the engine. It turns out the seller was telling prospective buyers that Francois had worked on this engine, implying that it was rebuilt by the Frenchman. Needless to say, Francois was pretty angry with the reference, but this kind of stuff happens all the time. The lesson? Check the references, and TRUST NO ONE!
Tom
I understand your reluctance to not posting the mechanic's name who did the bad rebuild, but I feel that both the mechanic, and previous owner are at fault. The owner was trying to save some money, only to fool the buyer. The mechanic, knowing that his repair would be temporary, should have never accepted the job. Greed plays a part with both, previous owner, and mechanic. If the mechanic is a well known Ferrari mechanic, then he doesn't need work like this to pay his bills. Sure, the owner would have eventually found someone to do this job for him, but at least the Ferrari mechanic's reputation would remain intact.
The flip side to all this is a situation that Francois has told me about. He was once asked to do a tune up on a car to ready it for sale. This involved a valve adjustment, and a few other repairs. Several weeks later, a prospective owner called Francois to ask what kind of work he had done on the engine. It turns out the seller was telling prospective buyers that Francois had worked on this engine, implying that it was rebuilt by the Frenchman. Needless to say, Francois was pretty angry with the reference, but this kind of stuff happens all the time. The lesson? Check the references, and TRUST NO ONE!
Tom
I wanted to say how great this whole Bill Rose and his engine string has been. I had also mentioned to Tom how useful a listing of Ferrari mechanics would be. I would think it would be important that this listing give some information about the shops and not be an out and out recommendation because who can really say that one's great experience with a shop would necessarily carry over to the next person. As Bill said with his engine situation, the work was originally done by a competent mechanic.
I feel that your experience Bill is not so unusual. I too bought a car with a "rebuilt engine" and in my case, as with yours, so many corners were cut that I had to rebuild it again as soon as I took possession of the car.
I will say the name of who I dealt with. I bought my car from VSOC in Holland and I feel they and Daytona Garage in Holland knowingly misrepresented the condition of the car.
So Tom do you want to have a section of the site, maybe like the stories section, for us to discuss our experiences with different Ferrari mechanics? Maybe it should be a sign in section and not a publicly accessible forum?
Yale
I feel that your experience Bill is not so unusual. I too bought a car with a "rebuilt engine" and in my case, as with yours, so many corners were cut that I had to rebuild it again as soon as I took possession of the car.
I will say the name of who I dealt with. I bought my car from VSOC in Holland and I feel they and Daytona Garage in Holland knowingly misrepresented the condition of the car.
So Tom do you want to have a section of the site, maybe like the stories section, for us to discuss our experiences with different Ferrari mechanics? Maybe it should be a sign in section and not a publicly accessible forum?
Yale
-
Bernard Fahimian
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:15 am