Ok, I have watched the market and also subscribe to Ferrari Market letter
What kind of price should I pay for a near perfect (restored) 250 GTE. The car in question was restored and the owner spent a large amout of money on the car in the mid 1980's The car's interior is showroom new. and the engine is beautiful, detailed and correct. The wheels and crome are also beautiful. the paint looks great. It appears the only thing the car needs is a new fuel pump. any ideas on the price I should Pay????
William
How much $$ for a 250 GTE
Hi William,
I'll give this a shot. I think the reason why most people haven't responded is because it's not so easy an answer. The GTE market seems to be going up, far faster than the price guides. SCM still show average GTEs in the $40-50K range where I believe they are trading hands at much higher prices. I know that some owners have recently paid $70K for 2+2 cars in near perfect condition, so understand that what is listed in the guides may not be what is actually being paid in the private market. Sportscar Market largely uses auction prices for their guides, but many good cars are sold privately without these publishers hearing about the prices paid. Also understand that an engine rebuild on one of these cars can run $20K, paint and bodywork can easily top $20K, and an interior is $8-10K, so when you can find a car with all these issues sorted, you will actually save money even if you pay top dollar.
$70K or more can sound like a lit of money, but I always say, you can't drive a mutual fund!
Good luck, and let us know how you made out.
Tom
I'll give this a shot. I think the reason why most people haven't responded is because it's not so easy an answer. The GTE market seems to be going up, far faster than the price guides. SCM still show average GTEs in the $40-50K range where I believe they are trading hands at much higher prices. I know that some owners have recently paid $70K for 2+2 cars in near perfect condition, so understand that what is listed in the guides may not be what is actually being paid in the private market. Sportscar Market largely uses auction prices for their guides, but many good cars are sold privately without these publishers hearing about the prices paid. Also understand that an engine rebuild on one of these cars can run $20K, paint and bodywork can easily top $20K, and an interior is $8-10K, so when you can find a car with all these issues sorted, you will actually save money even if you pay top dollar.
$70K or more can sound like a lit of money, but I always say, you can't drive a mutual fund!
Good luck, and let us know how you made out.
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
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David Booth
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 2:23 am
- Location: Vista, California
- Contact:
The current issue of Cavallino lists the GTE at $40-80k and the 330 America at $40-75k.
To quote the magazine's "Guida" section, which is where the price ranges for all Ferrari models are listed, "Indicated prices are are current with this issue and are based either on actual sales or a knowledgable estimate of what a specific model would sell for if ever brought to market. Low end (of the listed price range) indicates cars in generally poor condition, or with dubious histories, or with no competition history, etc. High end indicates cars in excellent condition, or restored cars, or cars with proven histories, or with competition histories, etc.".
People who make their living buying and selling these cars, including our friend and frequent contributor Tom Shaughnessy, have said time and again that you're much better off to pay for the restoration work soomeone else did on a particular car, often enabling you to get the car itself (the original project vehicle) at no additional cost. This is a concept that has been proven right time and again, although many of us on this forum, myself included, didn't have the mental or fiscal horsepower to act upon it.
While I certainly hope that a car restored about 20 years ago needs nothing but a fuel pump, I frankly wouldn't count on it.
To quote the magazine's "Guida" section, which is where the price ranges for all Ferrari models are listed, "Indicated prices are are current with this issue and are based either on actual sales or a knowledgable estimate of what a specific model would sell for if ever brought to market. Low end (of the listed price range) indicates cars in generally poor condition, or with dubious histories, or with no competition history, etc. High end indicates cars in excellent condition, or restored cars, or cars with proven histories, or with competition histories, etc.".
People who make their living buying and selling these cars, including our friend and frequent contributor Tom Shaughnessy, have said time and again that you're much better off to pay for the restoration work soomeone else did on a particular car, often enabling you to get the car itself (the original project vehicle) at no additional cost. This is a concept that has been proven right time and again, although many of us on this forum, myself included, didn't have the mental or fiscal horsepower to act upon it.
While I certainly hope that a car restored about 20 years ago needs nothing but a fuel pump, I frankly wouldn't count on it.
1960 SII PF cabriolet #2105GT
1963 250GTE #4799GT with 330 America engine #5033GT
"...Luigi follow only the Ferraris.."
1963 250GTE #4799GT with 330 America engine #5033GT
"...Luigi follow only the Ferraris.."
I'd have about 10% of the sale price on hand in cash for immediate stuff; hopefully, you won't need all of it, you will certainly need some of it.David Booth wrote:
While I certainly hope that a car restored about 20 years ago needs nothing but a fuel pump, I frankly wouldn't count on it.
Current: 1983 308 GTS
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
Tom,David thanks for your feed back. The owner has offered me the car at a very low amount. say 20 to 30K less then top dollar. This is because of a friendship I have with a family member of the owner. I have seen asking prices for these cars as high as 85k 79K 65K in the US and even more in Europe. I just don't know if people are paying these prices, and I'm curious to know if I buy the car I'll be able to get out of it I I needed to sale. Not lose money.
The Car is Very Nice.
William
The Car is Very Nice.
William
Hi William,
Realize if you buy smart, you won't loose a lot of money, but with Ferraris, simple maintenace can be costly. I would tend to agree with David, you'll find other things to tend to besides a fuel pump if the restoration is over 20 years old, but that's the nature of these cars.
Tom
Realize if you buy smart, you won't loose a lot of money, but with Ferraris, simple maintenace can be costly. I would tend to agree with David, you'll find other things to tend to besides a fuel pump if the restoration is over 20 years old, but that's the nature of these cars.
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Another important question would be how often the car has been driven over the last few years. A regularly used car, driven good distances will almost always be in better condition than one that comes out of the garage once a year for the local ferrari club display. A rarely used car, even with a good inspection, will almost certainly need a fair amount of cash spent on re-awakening.
20K under market though gives you a fair amount of room though....
20K under market though gives you a fair amount of room though....
64 330gt 2+2 #6413
Thanks bluecat, fuiszt, I was told the car was started regularly and well maintained. However I'm fairly confident the car has not been driven in over a year. The car started right up according to the owner the throttle or linkage stuck and the car revved up. After this happened the car was turned off right away. The owner also believes a new fuel pump is needed.Outside of this I don't know of any other problems. The owner is not trying to sell me the car to make money so there is no hidden agenda. The only problem is the car on the west coast and I live in Indiana. So outside of photos and phone conversations this is all I can tell you. However, like I said, this deal is through a friendship, and I feel very confident with the other end.
Any ideas on what I should Look for?
This deal could not come at a worse time as my wife an I are about to close on a new home this month but you know car guys think.
I guess I just don't know what my odds are of finding another car like this one at such a good price. This car is that nice.
William
Any ideas on what I should Look for?
This deal could not come at a worse time as my wife an I are about to close on a new home this month but you know car guys think.
I guess I just don't know what my odds are of finding another car like this one at such a good price. This car is that nice.
William
Hi William,
It takes alot of dilligence not to get burned buying an old Ferrari. I bought a 67 330 GT 2+2 in July, working with the seller-dealer for 3 months to prepare the car as he stated it would be. He was very easy to deal with and he came thru actually exceeding my expectations. After ALOT of research on the car and talking with prior owners, i felt i knew the car real well even though I didnt see it until the day I bought it. But the car was exactly what I was expecting. It is one step below concours condition but its strength is that it is a complete unmolested original car. Every trim piece etc is accounted for. I paid $10000 below the top price listed in Cavallino, comesurate with its condition. I honestly dont know how I could have done better and wouldnt press my luck trying to find another as EVERY car has some issues. I have put an additional 10% of the purchase price into the car in work, most neccessary (rebuilt brakes, new tires, new bearings, rad rebuld), some not (NOS wiper blades, jack plugs, a couple other cosmetic things).
2 pieces of advice:
Get a PPI
Budget 10% of purchase price for immediate needs.
Regards,
Dan
It takes alot of dilligence not to get burned buying an old Ferrari. I bought a 67 330 GT 2+2 in July, working with the seller-dealer for 3 months to prepare the car as he stated it would be. He was very easy to deal with and he came thru actually exceeding my expectations. After ALOT of research on the car and talking with prior owners, i felt i knew the car real well even though I didnt see it until the day I bought it. But the car was exactly what I was expecting. It is one step below concours condition but its strength is that it is a complete unmolested original car. Every trim piece etc is accounted for. I paid $10000 below the top price listed in Cavallino, comesurate with its condition. I honestly dont know how I could have done better and wouldnt press my luck trying to find another as EVERY car has some issues. I have put an additional 10% of the purchase price into the car in work, most neccessary (rebuilt brakes, new tires, new bearings, rad rebuld), some not (NOS wiper blades, jack plugs, a couple other cosmetic things).
2 pieces of advice:
Get a PPI
Budget 10% of purchase price for immediate needs.
Regards,
Dan
William:
Since its a friendship kind of deal, and your friend is offering you what sounds like a very impressive discount, is this making you a little reluctant to ask him about getting a PPI? I mean, even if you feel like you're getting a truly excellent deal in relation to the current market, and you don't intend to use it as a basis for further negotiation, a PPI would make a big difference in your comfort level with the purchase. With the house closing and car coming (stuff like this always seems to find a way of happening at the same time), save you and your wife some stress by knowing more closely what you're facing in terms of expenses on your car. As you can see from Dan's post, even a car in the best of condition at sale can develop issues that are going to set you back some. You can get more than enough recs off this board for good places to take it for a PPI.
Two good pieces of advice that are a consistent theme: Get a PPI and have a realistic idea of your upfront expenses, and have an additional 10% of purchase price budgeted for the unforseen that will no doubt show up in your first six months of ownership.
Since its a friendship kind of deal, and your friend is offering you what sounds like a very impressive discount, is this making you a little reluctant to ask him about getting a PPI? I mean, even if you feel like you're getting a truly excellent deal in relation to the current market, and you don't intend to use it as a basis for further negotiation, a PPI would make a big difference in your comfort level with the purchase. With the house closing and car coming (stuff like this always seems to find a way of happening at the same time), save you and your wife some stress by knowing more closely what you're facing in terms of expenses on your car. As you can see from Dan's post, even a car in the best of condition at sale can develop issues that are going to set you back some. You can get more than enough recs off this board for good places to take it for a PPI.
Two good pieces of advice that are a consistent theme: Get a PPI and have a realistic idea of your upfront expenses, and have an additional 10% of purchase price budgeted for the unforseen that will no doubt show up in your first six months of ownership.
Current: 1983 308 GTS
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
Bluecat good advise. You hit the nail on the head with the PPI. This is a very unique situation and the owner does not want other people around the collection of cars or around the property. They would rather sale the car to me then deal with strangers. I may suggest the PPI but like I said this is a unique situation. I really think that if I fly and see the car along with the PPI person this might be the only way it will work. not sure. But like I said this could not come at a worse time for me with the new house and trying to budget. It is amazing to me that thes opportunities happen at the what seems to be the worse time. Thats why I really wanted to know if I buy the car, can I get out of it if I have to, and is buying the car for 20K to 30K less then I have seen asking prices that good of an opportunity. Like I said the cars interior, wheels, crome and body is museum quality no expenses spared. the engine is correct and detailed looks beautiful and amazing. But I have not heard it run.
Thanks
William
Thanks
William
I would venture to say that finding a 40yr+ old 2+2 having both original books and tools is the great exception to what is commonly encountered.xs10shl wrote:. . . and don't forget to examine the books and tools (I sound like a broken record). Books and tools for a 250 GTE cost 5 to 7 thousand retail.
Out of the ten or so 2+2 (250 GTE, 330 2+2, 365 2+2) cars that I did more than a superficial inquiry on, maybe one had all of both. Very few had even partial sets.
My car had all the original books, but no tools, bag, or jack. I felt very lucky to get the books, and then idiotically lost two of them. :(
Current: 1983 308 GTS
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
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Michael Bayer
- Posts: 699
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 7:22 am