I made the mistake of posting a thread on FerrariChat...

[Matt F]

I created a post on Ferrarichat under the subject title "If you're considering an older Ferrari, you'd better buy it now"

Art S, lukek, Spook64 and some other guys made some helpful posts, but the rest reeled out of control. I think it ended up being about 308 values and gasoline prices, but it's hard to tell. If you want to see it yourself, here's the link: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51185

I'm posting again it here on Tom's Forum, where I should have posted it in the first place. I'm sure I'll get some more thoughtful responses!

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My 330 GT, serial number 9453, was bought by its second owner in 1969 for $8500. That same owner sold it for $115,000 in 1989. I suppose it’s fair to say that I bought it for a price somewhere in between the two values…

A year or so ago, when I was shopping for an older Ferrari, it seemed like there was a pretty good selection of cars to choose from. I was specifically looking for a Series II 2-headlamp 330 2+2, and was able to consider a number of examples before settling on s/n 9453. One that I looked at had an odd modification to the rear bumper, another needed too much fixing, a third car had an owner that wouldn’t submit his car to a proper inspection.

Now those cars — or similar cars — are hard to find. There’s an “interim” model being offered in Long Island for a lofty $79,500. The latest print edition of the Ferrari Market Letter didn’t have any 330 2+2’s at all. In fact, the most recent FCA newsletter had a Series II car wanted ad.

I also am quickly realizing that I missed the boat on buying a Daytona. I can’t believe how quickly the values have risen in the past few months. (Actually, my biggest regret was not buying the Raquel Welch 275 GTS at auction; but then again, I wasn’t even at that auction.)

What’s causing this increased demand for older Ferraris? I understand the tremendous spike that came after Enzo Ferrari passed away. What’s the current catalyst? Are where is the Ferrari market going?

[tyang]

Hi Matt,

Along with collecting some useful information, Ferrarichat also collects a lot of people with a lot of crazy opinions. I find it too time consuming to mull though all that dreck to find the good stuff! Rob does a great job running that site, but it's a little too much for me.

I think the rising prices are affected by a number of factors. I personally think a lot has to do with Baby Boomers reaching an age where they can afford anything they want, and many of them are buying cars. Vintage Ferraris are in limited supply, so as the more desireable models get bought up, the 2+2 market rises to fill the void. I don't have to tell the members of this website how nice these cars are, but people who are newly considering them are seeing the value in these cars when their two-seat counterparts are selling for twice to three times more.

The crazy prices that auctions like Barret Jackson show how much money is out there burning a hole in guys pockets. Cudas are commanding Ferrari prices, so people can certainly afford anything they want.

Tom

[Art S.]

Matt,

There are both positives and negatives about F-Chat. There is a greater volume of posts and some very knowledgeable people that post there but you also get stuck with a lot more garbage.

By the way, my comments on the F-Chat thread related to the fact that 330 2+2 prices are approaching where 330 GTC prices were a few months ago (a slight exaggeration). There was a 330 GTC that seemed to be pretty nice which sold for $70K that would probably be over $100K now.

My other comment on the subject is that your first major repair throws the concept of purchase price out the window. Even though Wayne bought a car that is mint, I'm guessing that he is exceeding his projected Ferrari maintenance budget.

F-Chat is fun but Tom's is where the real vintage stuff is discussed.

Regards,

Art S.

[Yale]

I think it just shows that there is no "actual" value unlike used cars that there are 1000's of any one kind in existence. The NY Times today has an article about a Dubai sheik that sent the art market into palpitations whenever he would bid on an artwork at auction. It didn't matter what the expected price of the object would be if he wanted it, "the sky was the limit". He spent over a billion (yes, billion) on stuff over the past few years. If there was no internet boom and no devalued dollar the cost of Ferrari's -might- be different in 2005. Then again maybe not. Have I told you about how much gas my 308 takes? Yale

[Matt F]

Thank you, guys, for far less insane responses.

I agree with Tom that the values of 2+2's rise to fill the void left by the limited supply of vintage Ferraris out there. As Art points out, 330 2+2 prices are approaching where 330 GTC prices were a few months ago (and I don't think that it's going to be too much of an exaggeration). The asking prices for 275 GTB's--in any configuration--have really taken off.

But has happened over the past few months? What specifically has fueled the fire of demand?

Are the guys who bought Hemi Cudas realizing what they could've had for the money? Do real estate speculators need a new investment? Are the thousands of people with 355s and 360s realizing that vintages Ferraris are attractive, too?

Perhaps my question should be changed to this: why, after 15 years, are people suddenly appreciating old Ferraris again?

[sam231]

Last month I went down to a classic car dealership in Connecticut to take pictures of the reversing lights under the rear bumper of a series II car the company was restoring and had for sale. When I arrived the car was in boxes and the body prepped for painting. The fellow commented that the car and a 308 from somewhere else had just been bought by a Swede as is and they were about to put all the poieces in a container and ship it with the 308 abroad. I think the lack of quality cars has to do partly with buying by baby boomers (my situation!), no collection sales, but mostly because the $ has depreciated so much they are being sucked abroad. The lack of supply is driving up prices of most "vintage" models.

[Matt F]

That's a good point, Sam. The exchange rate accounts for a lot of it, I'm sure. Which is actually good for us American owners; it will diminish the supply of cars in the US.

However, I think that the asking prices in pounds and euros still seems to be increasing. Look at advertisements for Ferraris for sale in magazines like Octane or Sportscar & Classic. The 275s in particular seem to be the clearest example.

[Matt F]

By the way, Art, what all has Wayne had to do to maintain his GTE?

[Art S.]

Matt,

I haven't looked for them but there are threads here and on F-chat specifically about Wayne's woes. If I recall, his mechanic was saying something about the head gasket.

Regards,

Art S.

[jsa330]

Matt:

spook64 on fchat = bluecat49 here. I do my nutjob rants on the R&P section over there; When I want serious vintage Ferrari info or want to pass on the same, unpolluted by irrelevant posts, I read/post here.

Like you, I'm happy that I made my 330 2+2 purchase when I did, and did the work it needed.

I've never had aspirations beyond brief daydreams to trade up, so one of these days #5409 will emerge fully restored. I'd have to pay over twice what I could get out of it to get a GTC in the same shape #5409 was when I bought it. Why sell my car--I couldn't get back in without spending a lot more $$. Multiplied many owners over, that situations's got to be a good part of reason for the sharp upward price trend in 2+2's.

[tyang]

Although this has nothing to do with the recent rise in 2+2 values, a 2+2 is far more useable than a 2-seater. Last month I wrote about riding up in Yale's 330GT 2+2 up to CT to visit Michael and his 330 America. The three of us went to lunch in one car which would not have been possible in a 2-seater. I find sharing the experience of these cars pretty rewarding, and with two extra seats, 2+2s are more fun.

Tom

[sam231]

That's a very cogent point Tom. I would also submit that with the pressure society is putting on us to accumulate as many "toys" as possible, we practical Ferrari owners realize that at least one car on the tour must be able to carry them.

[Art S.]

Two more minor points:

1. Notice how in this forum all threads tend to lead 2+2's - not that I mind...

2. If I'm not mistaken; when these cars were new, the 2+2's were, and still are, the most expensive of the series production cars.

Art S.

[Bryan P]

I've posted this before; vintage 2+2 owners are the geniuses of the Ferrari world as far as I'm concerned. And now that prices in general, and particularly those of the pre-Fiat 2-seaters are approaching the yearly income of the top 5% of income earners in america, we look especially smart.

I am a little bewildered that there seem to be so few examples, 2+2s and 2-seaters, for sale. The pre-fiat Ferrari ads would go for pages and pages in the FML in the late 80s, everyone was trying to get in or was flipping before the market topped out. But in this purported boom in prices, the queen mother ads are on the bottom of the second page of the FML, there are practically no 330 2+2s, PF Coupes, etc. Are they all just being sucked over to europe and not advertised here?

I don't know if it has been mentioned here, but I've found www.ferrarinexus.com to be an interesting site to go browsing the web for all the web-advertised vintage Ferraris. There are some pretty ratty French/Swiss queen mothers advertised for some pretty scary prices .. .

[Sleeper]

I created a post on Ferrarichat under the subject title "If you're considering an older Ferrari, you'd better buy it now"

Art S, lukek, Spook64 and some other guys made some helpful posts, but the rest reeled out of control. I think it ended up being about 308 values and gasoline prices, but it's hard to tell. If you want to see it yourself, here's the link: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51185

I'm posting again it here on Tom's Forum, where I should have posted it in the first place. I'm sure I'll get some more thoughtful responses!

---------------------------------------

My 330 GT, serial number 9453, was bought by its second owner in 1969 for $8500. That same owner sold it for $115,000 in 1989. I suppose it’s fair to say that I bought it for a price somewhere in between the two values…

A year or so ago, when I was shopping for an older Ferrari, it seemed like there was a pretty good selection of cars to choose from. I was specifically looking for a Series II 2-headlamp 330 2+2, and was able to consider a number of examples before settling on s/n 9453. One that I looked at had an odd modification to the rear bumper, another needed too much fixing, a third car had an owner that wouldn’t submit his car to a proper inspection.

Now those cars — or similar cars — are hard to find. There’s an “interim” model being offered in Long Island for a lofty $79,500. The latest print edition of the Ferrari Market Letter didn’t have any 330 2+2’s at all. In fact, the most recent FCA newsletter had a Series II car wanted ad.

I also am quickly realizing that I missed the boat on buying a Daytona. I can’t believe how quickly the values have risen in the past few months. (Actually, my biggest regret was not buying the Raquel Welch 275 GTS at auction; but then again, I wasn’t even at that auction.)

What’s causing this increased demand for older Ferraris? I understand the tremendous spike that came after Enzo Ferrari passed away. What’s the current catalyst? Are where is the Ferrari market going?

You may be over reacting a bit, but the fact remains that on F-Chat you will always get pretty much immediate response, and the amount of potential good input is enourmous, here the focus is much more, well for lack of a better word, focused. I would suggest posting at both and use all the information that you can gather. F-chat is in your face stuff and it is just a much easier pace here.