Posted by mateo
hello, any comments out there re: the purchase of a clean 400i (5 sp) w/25K miles for about $35K? the car appears to be very clean in/out and has no known mechanical issues (have not yet had the car inspected by a ferrari specialist) this is above the(FML) index price, but i've found these cars to be all over the place in terms of price.
also, any out of the ordinary mechanical issues to be aware of re: this model?
any input would be greatly appreciated.
thank you, matt
400i
Re: 400i
Posted by Tom
Hi Matt,
I hope it's a perfect car for that kind of money. Usually with 400s, you have some room to bargain. I'm asumming you're buying this car in the US for use in the US? Make sure it has all it's DOT papers. I'm not an expert on these cars, but I believe none of these cars were officially imported into the US, and all of them here were imported as a "grey market" car. Nothing wrong with this as long as it has the proper paper work.
Electrically, these cars can also be troublesome. Check the operation of EVERYTHING electrical. THe knobs and switches break easily, and replacements are hard to come by, so make sure everything is there, or drop the offering price accordingly.
Good luck.
Tom  
Hi Matt,
I hope it's a perfect car for that kind of money. Usually with 400s, you have some room to bargain. I'm asumming you're buying this car in the US for use in the US? Make sure it has all it's DOT papers. I'm not an expert on these cars, but I believe none of these cars were officially imported into the US, and all of them here were imported as a "grey market" car. Nothing wrong with this as long as it has the proper paper work.
Electrically, these cars can also be troublesome. Check the operation of EVERYTHING electrical. THe knobs and switches break easily, and replacements are hard to come by, so make sure everything is there, or drop the offering price accordingly.
Good luck.
Tom  
Re: 400i
Posted by Thy
Hi,
I just bought a 400 last month for less than $14.000, but it is in Europe.
Mine is a 1977 automatic carburator one, not injection. It seems that carburators models do not have has many electrical problems as injections, which is logical. On the other hand, the 6 webers give a lot of set-up work.
Be carefull with these manual 400 : 400 where automatics, manuals where special orders. According to manual owners, the clunch doesn't survive more than 35.000 km on these models.
Check for the rust everywhere. Check if the tool box is complete, it can be a sign of "clean ownership". Check chassis and engine number are the same.
If you want to talk with a real 400 expert, contact : simonc@ccgxm.com
He is the one who convienced me that a 400 carbu was a better choice than a 400i.
You can take a look to the conversation we had on this site in April&May, if they are still here.
Thy
Hi,
I just bought a 400 last month for less than $14.000, but it is in Europe.
Mine is a 1977 automatic carburator one, not injection. It seems that carburators models do not have has many electrical problems as injections, which is logical. On the other hand, the 6 webers give a lot of set-up work.
Be carefull with these manual 400 : 400 where automatics, manuals where special orders. According to manual owners, the clunch doesn't survive more than 35.000 km on these models.
Check for the rust everywhere. Check if the tool box is complete, it can be a sign of "clean ownership". Check chassis and engine number are the same.
If you want to talk with a real 400 expert, contact : simonc@ccgxm.com
He is the one who convienced me that a 400 carbu was a better choice than a 400i.
You can take a look to the conversation we had on this site in April&May, if they are still here.
Thy
Re: 400i
Posted by Simon Campbell
Thanks for the recommendation, Thy
Mateo, if there is anything I can help with please let me know. Below is a list of items I suggested Thy check out. Hope this helps a little. I must say I agree with Tom in saying that at this price the car should be 100% so get a Ferrari mechanic to check it out.
Rust - check everywhere for rust
Accident damage - the two longitudinal chassis oval tubes that run from front to back should look straight. Other usual checks for damage apply and check to see the panels fit and line up correctly.
General how clean is the car. If it is dirty and the engine bay is dirty then the car probably has not been looked after very well.
Exhaust condition - confirm it is new and look like an original spec system and not made up out of bits and pieces.
Leather condition as it can be expensive to repair
Carpets - not so expensive (3,500FF I think I paid)
Tyres - Avon or Pirelli or similar cost around 1,000FF each, original Michelin XWX are 2,500FF each
Windscreens - If they are broken they are around 4,000FF each. Check for ANY leaks around the screens as this will indicate rust and is very expensive to repair
Toolkit & handbooks - Almost impossible to buy. There should be a jack, handle, spare fan belts in a leather bag plus a set of spanners, pliers etc. in a briefcase. Mine has the jack & bag, used ones on ebay are around $600 - I do not have the briefcase and the last one I saw for sale was over $2,000 an d the bidding was still going strong! Handbooks are available but are copies. An original one is around $250
Mechanically it seems the cars are very strong.
Engine - The car should start easily. The starter motor is always very noisy. To start it when cold turn on the ignition, wait for the fuel pumps to stop 'clicking', do not use the choke, pump the accelerator three times and turn the key. You should idle a cold engine at around 1,800rpm until it warms up a little and then it should be OK with no throttle. Tickover is around 800rpm when warm and there is a cold running system which will keep the tickover at 1,000-1,200 when it is warming up. Do not drive it hard until it shows a reading on the temperature gauge. When it is warm the oil pressure (on mine at least) is around 20-25psi (pounds per square inch) at tickover and 80psi at 3,000rpm. The low pressure at tickover worried me at first but it seem that this is normal. If the pressure is low at 3,000rpm then it could be old oil, old filters or even a faulty sender unit (I changed mine and added 20psi, it cost 150FF for the part). Let the car idle at tickover for 10 minutes when it is completely warmed-up and then rev it to 2,500rpm. Blue smoke from the exhausts shows worn valve seals. If the engine shows blue smoke when you rev it without idling it first then it may be worn piston rings. Listen for timing chain rattle. They are easy to adjust unless there is no adjustment left. The experts do say that the engine will need valve seals and timing chain at 50-60,000 miles. Mine has covered 58,000 and they are probably correct - my chain is getting too long to tension correctly and I do burn oil from the valve seals. I may do the top overhaul next year but it could be expensive as the parts are not cheap. See a real experts opinion on this at http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/SCM_9812.html On e final thought the roar from the Webers is loud. If your Dad has not experienced six twin choke Webers before it may scare him a little. It sound like a machine-gun firing when you accelerate.
Gearbox - Should change smoothly an d easily A reconditioned box is around 4,000-5,000FF but the cost of removal and re-fitting would be expensive. They last forever anyway. It is the same box as a Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow.
Back Axle - Never heard of any problems with these. Listen for clunks and noises in the drive-train that indicate worn UJs (universal joints).
Brakes - Should work! They are heavy and feel dead until the brakes warm up and then they get better. Check the hand-brake also as it can be a little difficult to get working correctly, not impossible just difficult.
Suspension - This is quite noisy. In fact all the magazine articles of the car when it was new complained of noisy suspension that 'crashed' over holes in the road. This is true but get the car to 125kph and it suddenly smooths out and feels great.
Steering - Power assisted. Look for usual wear.
Air-conditioning - check it works. If it does not blow really cold air it might need re-charging, but check that the pump on the engine gives a loud click when you turn the temp knob to cold. This shows that the clutch is working and so the lack of coldness is probably due to a lack of gas. If your car has rear air-conditioning check this works also.
General - Check the windows work all the way down and all the way up, and the electric ariel. Check the headlights go up and down and the horn works. Apart from the air-conditioning fan there are two fan for blowing normal non-air-conditioned air. Finally check the door locks work and teat you have all the keys.
Hope this helps your Dad. If there is anything that is unclear or that you don't understand then get back to me.
One final point is to check that the service book and the cars papers all have the same chassis number as the car. On the car it is on a black & silver plate on the passenger inner front wing an d it is stamped on the chassis at the front of the drivers front inner wing below the power steering reservoir. This will just be a five digit number. Actually mine is 21557 and the one stamped on the chassis I think it has an asterisk (*) at each end so your 'b' may be an '*'
Thanks for the recommendation, Thy
Mateo, if there is anything I can help with please let me know. Below is a list of items I suggested Thy check out. Hope this helps a little. I must say I agree with Tom in saying that at this price the car should be 100% so get a Ferrari mechanic to check it out.
Rust - check everywhere for rust
Accident damage - the two longitudinal chassis oval tubes that run from front to back should look straight. Other usual checks for damage apply and check to see the panels fit and line up correctly.
General how clean is the car. If it is dirty and the engine bay is dirty then the car probably has not been looked after very well.
Exhaust condition - confirm it is new and look like an original spec system and not made up out of bits and pieces.
Leather condition as it can be expensive to repair
Carpets - not so expensive (3,500FF I think I paid)
Tyres - Avon or Pirelli or similar cost around 1,000FF each, original Michelin XWX are 2,500FF each
Windscreens - If they are broken they are around 4,000FF each. Check for ANY leaks around the screens as this will indicate rust and is very expensive to repair
Toolkit & handbooks - Almost impossible to buy. There should be a jack, handle, spare fan belts in a leather bag plus a set of spanners, pliers etc. in a briefcase. Mine has the jack & bag, used ones on ebay are around $600 - I do not have the briefcase and the last one I saw for sale was over $2,000 an d the bidding was still going strong! Handbooks are available but are copies. An original one is around $250
Mechanically it seems the cars are very strong.
Engine - The car should start easily. The starter motor is always very noisy. To start it when cold turn on the ignition, wait for the fuel pumps to stop 'clicking', do not use the choke, pump the accelerator three times and turn the key. You should idle a cold engine at around 1,800rpm until it warms up a little and then it should be OK with no throttle. Tickover is around 800rpm when warm and there is a cold running system which will keep the tickover at 1,000-1,200 when it is warming up. Do not drive it hard until it shows a reading on the temperature gauge. When it is warm the oil pressure (on mine at least) is around 20-25psi (pounds per square inch) at tickover and 80psi at 3,000rpm. The low pressure at tickover worried me at first but it seem that this is normal. If the pressure is low at 3,000rpm then it could be old oil, old filters or even a faulty sender unit (I changed mine and added 20psi, it cost 150FF for the part). Let the car idle at tickover for 10 minutes when it is completely warmed-up and then rev it to 2,500rpm. Blue smoke from the exhausts shows worn valve seals. If the engine shows blue smoke when you rev it without idling it first then it may be worn piston rings. Listen for timing chain rattle. They are easy to adjust unless there is no adjustment left. The experts do say that the engine will need valve seals and timing chain at 50-60,000 miles. Mine has covered 58,000 and they are probably correct - my chain is getting too long to tension correctly and I do burn oil from the valve seals. I may do the top overhaul next year but it could be expensive as the parts are not cheap. See a real experts opinion on this at http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/SCM_9812.html On e final thought the roar from the Webers is loud. If your Dad has not experienced six twin choke Webers before it may scare him a little. It sound like a machine-gun firing when you accelerate.
Gearbox - Should change smoothly an d easily A reconditioned box is around 4,000-5,000FF but the cost of removal and re-fitting would be expensive. They last forever anyway. It is the same box as a Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow.
Back Axle - Never heard of any problems with these. Listen for clunks and noises in the drive-train that indicate worn UJs (universal joints).
Brakes - Should work! They are heavy and feel dead until the brakes warm up and then they get better. Check the hand-brake also as it can be a little difficult to get working correctly, not impossible just difficult.
Suspension - This is quite noisy. In fact all the magazine articles of the car when it was new complained of noisy suspension that 'crashed' over holes in the road. This is true but get the car to 125kph and it suddenly smooths out and feels great.
Steering - Power assisted. Look for usual wear.
Air-conditioning - check it works. If it does not blow really cold air it might need re-charging, but check that the pump on the engine gives a loud click when you turn the temp knob to cold. This shows that the clutch is working and so the lack of coldness is probably due to a lack of gas. If your car has rear air-conditioning check this works also.
General - Check the windows work all the way down and all the way up, and the electric ariel. Check the headlights go up and down and the horn works. Apart from the air-conditioning fan there are two fan for blowing normal non-air-conditioned air. Finally check the door locks work and teat you have all the keys.
Hope this helps your Dad. If there is anything that is unclear or that you don't understand then get back to me.
One final point is to check that the service book and the cars papers all have the same chassis number as the car. On the car it is on a black & silver plate on the passenger inner front wing an d it is stamped on the chassis at the front of the drivers front inner wing below the power steering reservoir. This will just be a five digit number. Actually mine is 21557 and the one stamped on the chassis I think it has an asterisk (*) at each end so your 'b' may be an '*'
Re: 400i
Posted by matt
Thank you very much Simon, Thy & Tom. A wealth of good info - more than i expected.
Simon, The letter you had mentioned was sobering.
Tell me, assuming one has some mechanical/engineering background, is there any reason one cannot perform the bulk of the mechanical rework or repair himself? The 400 appears to be of relatively older technology and i would think it's just a matter of learning the model. Do you agree?
Also, I've heard that no (or few)factory repair books exist. Dealers are telling me that it's all tribal knowledge. If so, am I destined to rely on the factory for all maintenance needs?
Thanks again, matt
Thank you very much Simon, Thy & Tom. A wealth of good info - more than i expected.
Simon, The letter you had mentioned was sobering.
Tell me, assuming one has some mechanical/engineering background, is there any reason one cannot perform the bulk of the mechanical rework or repair himself? The 400 appears to be of relatively older technology and i would think it's just a matter of learning the model. Do you agree?
Also, I've heard that no (or few)factory repair books exist. Dealers are telling me that it's all tribal knowledge. If so, am I destined to rely on the factory for all maintenance needs?
Thanks again, matt
Re: 400i
Posted by Soimon Campbell
The 400 is easy enough to work on, the 400i will be more difficult if the injection has problems but I've never heard of injection problems on one of these. Believe me six twin-choke Webers are more difficult to get right (and I'm still learning how to do this properly). I am not a mechanic but I do everything on my car so I may be able to help. You must get a workshop manual from Ferrari which is a little help (but not much) and a parts manual, which is essential as it shows how everything fits together. Apart from these two things I use common sense. Just ask here or by email if you get any problems. Tom's car is not entirely dissimilar form a 400, you can see how one evolved from the other. The real trick is to take it slowly and 'think' like an Italian engineer - you'll see what I mean when you start working on the car.
The 400 is easy enough to work on, the 400i will be more difficult if the injection has problems but I've never heard of injection problems on one of these. Believe me six twin-choke Webers are more difficult to get right (and I'm still learning how to do this properly). I am not a mechanic but I do everything on my car so I may be able to help. You must get a workshop manual from Ferrari which is a little help (but not much) and a parts manual, which is essential as it shows how everything fits together. Apart from these two things I use common sense. Just ask here or by email if you get any problems. Tom's car is not entirely dissimilar form a 400, you can see how one evolved from the other. The real trick is to take it slowly and 'think' like an Italian engineer - you'll see what I mean when you start working on the car.