Posted by Ade Maritz
Every time you post pictures of this car I am filled with admiration for the men who raced them. The mechanical engineering is of the highest quality - the safety engineering utterly non-existent. The only deformable structure in the whole car (apart from the bag tanks) is the driver ..... and from driving these cars (virtually that is, in Grand Prix Legends), I know that that car can do over 190 mph!
Dear God - hitting anything at that speed, in that car, doesn't bear thinking about. You have to believe that the drivers knew what they wanted, NOT wanting seat belts in the cars.
Thanks for the pictures Tom - I love seeing those details. Can you confirm that the front suspension rockers were cast aluminium - or are they fabricated? They're so well-polished I can't tell from here. heh.
Regards
Ade.
PS. Having owned old Healy's and Alfa's, at various times I've been where you are now with the diff on your car. Keep your chin up, son; you have my sympathy!
F1 312
Re: F1 312
Posted by Tom
Hi Ade,
ALL racing is dangerous, and this fact is still proven today with modern casualties, but it was definitely more dangerous back then! Part of it was due to ignorance, and part was due to the desire to win at all costs.
I had the opportunity to speak with Brian Redman a few years ago, and we spoke about his career with Porsche. He explained that one time he was trying out a new race car for the company when he realized the pedal box was in front of the forward suspension! In a crash, his feet would hit first! When he brought this to the attention to the engineers, they agreed, but did nothing to change the design.
What is even more astounding is the careers of drivers back then paid very little to risk their lives doing it. Today, top race drivers make millions, and aspiring drivers risk their lives to reach that goal. Back then, the top drivers made barely enough to survive to the next season! Sure, by the late sixties, money was being made, but many people raced more for the glory, than the money!
Racing sure has changed!
Tom
Hi Ade,
ALL racing is dangerous, and this fact is still proven today with modern casualties, but it was definitely more dangerous back then! Part of it was due to ignorance, and part was due to the desire to win at all costs.
I had the opportunity to speak with Brian Redman a few years ago, and we spoke about his career with Porsche. He explained that one time he was trying out a new race car for the company when he realized the pedal box was in front of the forward suspension! In a crash, his feet would hit first! When he brought this to the attention to the engineers, they agreed, but did nothing to change the design.
What is even more astounding is the careers of drivers back then paid very little to risk their lives doing it. Today, top race drivers make millions, and aspiring drivers risk their lives to reach that goal. Back then, the top drivers made barely enough to survive to the next season! Sure, by the late sixties, money was being made, but many people raced more for the glory, than the money!
Racing sure has changed!
Tom
Re: F1 312
Posted by Bryan P
I completely agree with Tom's and Ade's comments re: the sheer bravery and love of speed that made the F1 and sports racing drivers of the 1960s and earlier so amazing (or just crazy?). The mortality and injury rate amongst those drivers could not be imagined in any sport or undertaking today. I read an article a few years ago (celebrating the 30th anniversary of the film Grand Prix? I don't remember) in which Jaques Villenueve performed a few hot laps in one of the cars featured in the film - perhaps D. Gurney's Eagle. When he exited the car after the run, he was apparently very flustered - he said he had never in his career been so frightened by a race car. Since these were among the last formula cars with practically no downforce, he said the car simply began to 'float' over about 100mph - extremely unnerving. Until those laps, he hadn't truly appreciated the steel constitution those drivers must have had. No big $$, no sponsorships, no job security, and a high likelihood of maiming or death - horrible and heroic at the same time.
I completely agree with Tom's and Ade's comments re: the sheer bravery and love of speed that made the F1 and sports racing drivers of the 1960s and earlier so amazing (or just crazy?). The mortality and injury rate amongst those drivers could not be imagined in any sport or undertaking today. I read an article a few years ago (celebrating the 30th anniversary of the film Grand Prix? I don't remember) in which Jaques Villenueve performed a few hot laps in one of the cars featured in the film - perhaps D. Gurney's Eagle. When he exited the car after the run, he was apparently very flustered - he said he had never in his career been so frightened by a race car. Since these were among the last formula cars with practically no downforce, he said the car simply began to 'float' over about 100mph - extremely unnerving. Until those laps, he hadn't truly appreciated the steel constitution those drivers must have had. No big $$, no sponsorships, no job security, and a high likelihood of maiming or death - horrible and heroic at the same time.
Re: F1 312
Posted by Bryan P
I completely agree with Tom's and Ade's comments re: the sheer bravery and love of speed that made the F1 and sports racing drivers of the 1960s and earlier so amazing (or just crazy?). The mortality and injury rate amongst those drivers could not be imagined in any sport or undertaking today. I read an article a few years ago (celebrating the 30th anniversary of the film Grand Prix? I don't remember) in which Jaques Villenueve performed a few hot laps in one of the cars featured in the film - perhaps D. Gurney's Eagle. When he exited the car after the run, he was apparently very flustered - he said he had never in his career been so frightened by a race car. Since these were among the last formula cars with practically no downforce, he said the car simply began to 'float' over about 100mph - extremely unnerving. Until those laps, he hadn't truly appreciated the steel constitution those drivers must have had. No big $$, no sponsorships, no job security, and a high likelihood of maiming or death - horrible and heroic at the same time.
I completely agree with Tom's and Ade's comments re: the sheer bravery and love of speed that made the F1 and sports racing drivers of the 1960s and earlier so amazing (or just crazy?). The mortality and injury rate amongst those drivers could not be imagined in any sport or undertaking today. I read an article a few years ago (celebrating the 30th anniversary of the film Grand Prix? I don't remember) in which Jaques Villenueve performed a few hot laps in one of the cars featured in the film - perhaps D. Gurney's Eagle. When he exited the car after the run, he was apparently very flustered - he said he had never in his career been so frightened by a race car. Since these were among the last formula cars with practically no downforce, he said the car simply began to 'float' over about 100mph - extremely unnerving. Until those laps, he hadn't truly appreciated the steel constitution those drivers must have had. No big $$, no sponsorships, no job security, and a high likelihood of maiming or death - horrible and heroic at the same time.
Re: F1 312
Posted by Tom
We're going to sound like our father's talking about the old days, but...
Racing back them was purely about the passion. Drivers knew they had a real good chance of dying at any given race, and yet they still got in the car time and time again. Since there was no money, the only motivation was in the passion for racing itself. Of course being young and stupid has a lot to do with feeling invinceable, but they knew the odds.
That took passion beyond perhaps our comprehension.
Tom
We're going to sound like our father's talking about the old days, but...
Racing back them was purely about the passion. Drivers knew they had a real good chance of dying at any given race, and yet they still got in the car time and time again. Since there was no money, the only motivation was in the passion for racing itself. Of course being young and stupid has a lot to do with feeling invinceable, but they knew the odds.
That took passion beyond perhaps our comprehension.
Tom
Re: F1 312
Posted by Tom
We're going to sound like our father's talking about the old days, but...
Racing back them was purely about the passion. Drivers knew they had a real good chance of dying at any given race, and yet they still got in the car time and time again. Since there was no money, the only motivation was in the passion for racing itself. Of course being young and stupid has a lot to do with feeling invinceable, but they knew the odds.
That took passion beyond perhaps our comprehension.
Tom
We're going to sound like our father's talking about the old days, but...
Racing back them was purely about the passion. Drivers knew they had a real good chance of dying at any given race, and yet they still got in the car time and time again. Since there was no money, the only motivation was in the passion for racing itself. Of course being young and stupid has a lot to do with feeling invinceable, but they knew the odds.
That took passion beyond perhaps our comprehension.
Tom
Re: F1 312
Posted by Peter Skudder
Imagine driving the late 30's race cars, i.e. Auto Unions, Mercedes, etc. Similar speeds on the long straights with heavy, very powerful (600+ hp), and very old fashioned drum brakes + friction dampers, imprecise steering. No helmets but cloth caps and goggles, plus ofcourse refueling during the long races.
Add to this the road races, and Indy plus other ovals.
We are becoming much more cautious as we supposeably develop our society. Some people still need the rush, hence the new following of so called extreme sports.
Is there a balance in the fact that modern cars corner much faster thanks to wings and thus the drivers have to be more committed and also risk the unseen car blocking the track? ... I don't know. I just think it is socially unacceptable to risk people just for a sport anymore.
Pete
ps. Having worn 6 point harnesses and had a few reasonable track prangs, there is no way I would ever drive a car without a safety belt let alone race without one, infact I find the normal diagonal belt feels insecure. But then I have a family now ...
Imagine driving the late 30's race cars, i.e. Auto Unions, Mercedes, etc. Similar speeds on the long straights with heavy, very powerful (600+ hp), and very old fashioned drum brakes + friction dampers, imprecise steering. No helmets but cloth caps and goggles, plus ofcourse refueling during the long races.
Add to this the road races, and Indy plus other ovals.
We are becoming much more cautious as we supposeably develop our society. Some people still need the rush, hence the new following of so called extreme sports.
Is there a balance in the fact that modern cars corner much faster thanks to wings and thus the drivers have to be more committed and also risk the unseen car blocking the track? ... I don't know. I just think it is socially unacceptable to risk people just for a sport anymore.
Pete
ps. Having worn 6 point harnesses and had a few reasonable track prangs, there is no way I would ever drive a car without a safety belt let alone race without one, infact I find the normal diagonal belt feels insecure. But then I have a family now ...
Re: F1 312
Posted by Peter Skudder
Imagine driving the late 30's race cars, i.e. Auto Unions, Mercedes, etc. Similar speeds on the long straights with heavy, very powerful (600+ hp), and very old fashioned drum brakes + friction dampers, imprecise steering. No helmets but cloth caps and goggles, plus ofcourse refueling during the long races.
Add to this the road races, and Indy plus other ovals.
We are becoming much more cautious as we supposeably develop our society. Some people still need the rush, hence the new following of so called extreme sports.
Is there a balance in the fact that modern cars corner much faster thanks to wings and thus the drivers have to be more committed and also risk the unseen car blocking the track? ... I don't know. I just think it is socially unacceptable to risk people just for a sport anymore.
Pete
ps. Having worn 6 point harnesses and had a few reasonable track prangs, there is no way I would ever drive a car without a safety belt let alone race without one, infact I find the normal diagonal belt feels insecure. But then I have a family now ...
Imagine driving the late 30's race cars, i.e. Auto Unions, Mercedes, etc. Similar speeds on the long straights with heavy, very powerful (600+ hp), and very old fashioned drum brakes + friction dampers, imprecise steering. No helmets but cloth caps and goggles, plus ofcourse refueling during the long races.
Add to this the road races, and Indy plus other ovals.
We are becoming much more cautious as we supposeably develop our society. Some people still need the rush, hence the new following of so called extreme sports.
Is there a balance in the fact that modern cars corner much faster thanks to wings and thus the drivers have to be more committed and also risk the unseen car blocking the track? ... I don't know. I just think it is socially unacceptable to risk people just for a sport anymore.
Pete
ps. Having worn 6 point harnesses and had a few reasonable track prangs, there is no way I would ever drive a car without a safety belt let alone race without one, infact I find the normal diagonal belt feels insecure. But then I have a family now ...
Re: F1 312
Posted by Peter Skudder
Imagine driving the late 30's race cars, i.e. Auto Unions, Mercedes, etc. Similar speeds on the long straights with heavy, very powerful (600+ hp), and very old fashioned drum brakes + friction dampers, imprecise steering. No helmets but cloth caps and goggles, plus ofcourse refueling during the long races.
Add to this the road races, and Indy plus other ovals.
We are becoming much more cautious as we supposeably develop our society. Some people still need the rush, hence the new following of so called extreme sports.
Is there a balance in the fact that modern cars corner much faster thanks to wings and thus the drivers have to be more committed and also risk the unseen car blocking the track? ... I don't know. I just think it is socially unacceptable to risk people just for a sport anymore.
Pete
ps. Having worn 6 point harnesses and had a few reasonable track prangs, there is no way I would ever drive a car without a safety belt let alone race without one, infact I find the normal diagonal belt feels insecure. But then I have a family now ...
Imagine driving the late 30's race cars, i.e. Auto Unions, Mercedes, etc. Similar speeds on the long straights with heavy, very powerful (600+ hp), and very old fashioned drum brakes + friction dampers, imprecise steering. No helmets but cloth caps and goggles, plus ofcourse refueling during the long races.
Add to this the road races, and Indy plus other ovals.
We are becoming much more cautious as we supposeably develop our society. Some people still need the rush, hence the new following of so called extreme sports.
Is there a balance in the fact that modern cars corner much faster thanks to wings and thus the drivers have to be more committed and also risk the unseen car blocking the track? ... I don't know. I just think it is socially unacceptable to risk people just for a sport anymore.
Pete
ps. Having worn 6 point harnesses and had a few reasonable track prangs, there is no way I would ever drive a car without a safety belt let alone race without one, infact I find the normal diagonal belt feels insecure. But then I have a family now ...
Re: F1 312
Posted by Tom Yang
Hi Pete,
I agree with knowing more about safety, and using that knowledge to make racing safer. It's kind of like smoking and drinking while mothers were pregnant. Who knew? During the thirties and later, it was thought safer to be thrown clear of a crash! I certainly don't want racing to return to the times of such ignorance!
I also agree with feeling less safe in a passenger car after being coddled in a six point harness, and roll cage. One time when I found myself swapping ends going about 80 at Bridgehampton Racetrack, I was sure glad I decided to install a full cage. Thankfully, I didn't have to test the strength of the set up! I don't feel nearly as safe driving my Toyota on the road!
Tom
Hi Pete,
I agree with knowing more about safety, and using that knowledge to make racing safer. It's kind of like smoking and drinking while mothers were pregnant. Who knew? During the thirties and later, it was thought safer to be thrown clear of a crash! I certainly don't want racing to return to the times of such ignorance!
I also agree with feeling less safe in a passenger car after being coddled in a six point harness, and roll cage. One time when I found myself swapping ends going about 80 at Bridgehampton Racetrack, I was sure glad I decided to install a full cage. Thankfully, I didn't have to test the strength of the set up! I don't feel nearly as safe driving my Toyota on the road!
Tom
Re: F1 312
Posted by Tom Yang
Hi Pete,
I agree with knowing more about safety, and using that knowledge to make racing safer. It's kind of like smoking and drinking while mothers were pregnant. Who knew? During the thirties and later, it was thought safer to be thrown clear of a crash! I certainly don't want racing to return to the times of such ignorance!
I also agree with feeling less safe in a passenger car after being coddled in a six point harness, and roll cage. One time when I found myself swapping ends going about 80 at Bridgehampton Racetrack, I was sure glad I decided to install a full cage. Thankfully, I didn't have to test the strength of the set up! I don't feel nearly as safe driving my Toyota on the road!
Tom
Hi Pete,
I agree with knowing more about safety, and using that knowledge to make racing safer. It's kind of like smoking and drinking while mothers were pregnant. Who knew? During the thirties and later, it was thought safer to be thrown clear of a crash! I certainly don't want racing to return to the times of such ignorance!
I also agree with feeling less safe in a passenger car after being coddled in a six point harness, and roll cage. One time when I found myself swapping ends going about 80 at Bridgehampton Racetrack, I was sure glad I decided to install a full cage. Thankfully, I didn't have to test the strength of the set up! I don't feel nearly as safe driving my Toyota on the road!
Tom
Re: F1 312
Posted by Ade Maritz
I think the cars that would scare modern drivers the most were those built in the '50's. LOTS of power combined with light weight; for example, the 1500 cc BRM V-16 (yep! 1500 cc - can you imagine how small each of those 16 pistons were ...?) put out almost 800 bhp ... the mind boggles. The fuel was so exotic that one unfortunate chap stepped into a puddle of spilt fuel in the BRM pits, and the soles of his shoes promptly melted ... lol.
That sort of power on top of drum brakes, narrow, crappy cross-ply tyres and leaf springs would scare the horsepuckey clean outa me. Take the legendary Mercedes 300SLR sports racer. Drum brakes all round, of course. Merc's solution to grabbing brakes (as all drum brakes do, from time to time) ? Why, stick a device on the dash that'll deliver a squirt of oil to the offending brake!
Sheesh ...
Anybody who drove the oldsters fast had serious big ones.
I think the cars that would scare modern drivers the most were those built in the '50's. LOTS of power combined with light weight; for example, the 1500 cc BRM V-16 (yep! 1500 cc - can you imagine how small each of those 16 pistons were ...?) put out almost 800 bhp ... the mind boggles. The fuel was so exotic that one unfortunate chap stepped into a puddle of spilt fuel in the BRM pits, and the soles of his shoes promptly melted ... lol.
That sort of power on top of drum brakes, narrow, crappy cross-ply tyres and leaf springs would scare the horsepuckey clean outa me. Take the legendary Mercedes 300SLR sports racer. Drum brakes all round, of course. Merc's solution to grabbing brakes (as all drum brakes do, from time to time) ? Why, stick a device on the dash that'll deliver a squirt of oil to the offending brake!
Sheesh ...
Anybody who drove the oldsters fast had serious big ones.
Re: F1 312
Posted by Ade Maritz
I think the cars that would scare modern drivers the most were those built in the '50's. LOTS of power combined with light weight; for example, the 1500 cc BRM V-16 (yep! 1500 cc - can you imagine how small each of those 16 pistons were ...?) put out almost 800 bhp ... the mind boggles. The fuel was so exotic that one unfortunate chap stepped into a puddle of spilt fuel in the BRM pits, and the soles of his shoes promptly melted ... lol.
That sort of power on top of drum brakes, narrow, crappy cross-ply tyres and leaf springs would scare the horsepuckey clean outa me. Take the legendary Mercedes 300SLR sports racer. Drum brakes all round, of course. Merc's solution to grabbing brakes (as all drum brakes do, from time to time) ? Why, stick a device on the dash that'll deliver a squirt of oil to the offending brake!
Sheesh ...
Anybody who drove the oldsters fast had serious big ones.
I think the cars that would scare modern drivers the most were those built in the '50's. LOTS of power combined with light weight; for example, the 1500 cc BRM V-16 (yep! 1500 cc - can you imagine how small each of those 16 pistons were ...?) put out almost 800 bhp ... the mind boggles. The fuel was so exotic that one unfortunate chap stepped into a puddle of spilt fuel in the BRM pits, and the soles of his shoes promptly melted ... lol.
That sort of power on top of drum brakes, narrow, crappy cross-ply tyres and leaf springs would scare the horsepuckey clean outa me. Take the legendary Mercedes 300SLR sports racer. Drum brakes all round, of course. Merc's solution to grabbing brakes (as all drum brakes do, from time to time) ? Why, stick a device on the dash that'll deliver a squirt of oil to the offending brake!
Sheesh ...
Anybody who drove the oldsters fast had serious big ones.
Re: F1 312
Posted by Les
I have access to a 1970 312 (ser no 4) and after having studied closely I can say the upper control arms are fabricated steel. There is a sort of "H" sectioned backbone forged in steel with a cross tube welded in for the pivot. And to that a sheet steel reinforcement wrapped around upper half of the backbone in a triangular shape (this is what you see), and the whole thing is chrome plated.
Les
I have access to a 1970 312 (ser no 4) and after having studied closely I can say the upper control arms are fabricated steel. There is a sort of "H" sectioned backbone forged in steel with a cross tube welded in for the pivot. And to that a sheet steel reinforcement wrapped around upper half of the backbone in a triangular shape (this is what you see), and the whole thing is chrome plated.
Les
Re: F1 312
Posted by Ade Maritz
Chrome!
Thanks Les. That's what I meeded to know. After all, if you're going to put texture on a car part in a computer game, ya just gotta know if it should be polished aluminium or chrome ....
Lemme go hang up my anorak now. heh.
Chrome!
Thanks Les. That's what I meeded to know. After all, if you're going to put texture on a car part in a computer game, ya just gotta know if it should be polished aluminium or chrome ....
Lemme go hang up my anorak now. heh.