Posted by Steve Brazell - gtsteveb
Congrats on your 250th journal entry. It was great to see a positive result come out of the differential delimma. Out of curiosity, are the suspension links supposed to pivot on the bolts that are frozen to the inner sleave? If this is so, perhaps now would be a good time to replace the bolts if you can get them out without doing to much damage to the inner sleaves. By just doing the rear bolts on one side, you might risk unbalanced handling. Are there 4 links involved with 8 bolts total? Mike's idea of getting the links off the car to work on them seems to be the best method and easier in the long run. Better to address it now vs. realizing it at speed through a series of sweepers. Keep up the great work, you're getting close!!!
250th Journal Entry!
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Tom
Hi Steve,
Thanks for noticing the milestone!
I though about the issue of locking the bushing in place with the fozen bolt, but upon closer inspection, the rubber bushing was designed to take all the rotation of the locating arm. If you look at the inner sleeve of the bushing, you can see a slight serration. This pattern is matched with the other side of the bracket that clamps the arm to the axle tube. When everything is tightened, the only thing that allows for movement is the rubber bushing. So I'll be fine if I leave everything alone.
Tom
Hi Steve,
Thanks for noticing the milestone!
I though about the issue of locking the bushing in place with the fozen bolt, but upon closer inspection, the rubber bushing was designed to take all the rotation of the locating arm. If you look at the inner sleeve of the bushing, you can see a slight serration. This pattern is matched with the other side of the bracket that clamps the arm to the axle tube. When everything is tightened, the only thing that allows for movement is the rubber bushing. So I'll be fine if I leave everything alone.
Tom
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Peter Skudder
Steve,
As Tom has pointed out, even on Ferraris, all rubber suspension bushes are designed to lock the metal parts and use the rubber as the movement. This is why suspension bolts seize, especially as in Tom's case as the axle may have been submerged.
As I said in an earlier post, removing the trailing arms will enable Tom to attack these stubborn bolts with serious power, and I would use anti-seizing paste on the shafts of the new bolts to prevent them re-seizing. It is the clamping of the sleave ends that locks the inner sleave.
On a slight aside:
There is an interesting product, advertised as a performance product, that replaces the rubber with a harder substance (I do not remember what) and the inner sleave of those bushes rotate inside them. Thus the inner sleave is clamped as with the rubber bush but the rest of the bush rotates on this sleave. They provide special grease to help this process. In Australia (where I reside) they are common in old restored cars as you cannot buy the correct rubber replacement. Do not know if the US uses them?
Unfortunately, in my opinion there is a down side of these bushes and I would recommend that anybody that uses them thinks very hard about what the original designer of their car intended the rubber bush to do, i.e:
1. These bushes are much harder than the rubber and thus in some cases will restrict suspension movement, and make the car not handle the bumps as well. This maybe okay on the race track but not bumpy Sydney roads.
For example they would be very bad in Tom's rear suspension as it would effective lock the axle, and stop the axle pivoting when only one side goes over a bump, thus making the whole car twist.
2. Because they are designed to rotate around the inner sleave I have, on my own race car, had cases where they worked the bolt loose!!!!, naturally causing very strange handling. This would be extremely dangerous on a road car, as it might go unfound. You need to lock wire the suspension bolts if you think this might happen.
I think the only place I would use them would be for leaf spring eye bushes, as the leaf spring is designed to twist anyway.
Anyway I would be interested to hear if this sort of product is sold in the US or England, as I think the product mis-understands that suspension links are supposed to be able to move freely (i.e. think of the race car rose joint) and that in passenger car design there is a major compromise that means that the bushes have to flex in more than one direction.
Looking forward to hearing the video of start up once the diff is sorted, Tom.
This site has really helped my enthusiasim with my own restoration.
Pete
Steve,
As Tom has pointed out, even on Ferraris, all rubber suspension bushes are designed to lock the metal parts and use the rubber as the movement. This is why suspension bolts seize, especially as in Tom's case as the axle may have been submerged.
As I said in an earlier post, removing the trailing arms will enable Tom to attack these stubborn bolts with serious power, and I would use anti-seizing paste on the shafts of the new bolts to prevent them re-seizing. It is the clamping of the sleave ends that locks the inner sleave.
On a slight aside:
There is an interesting product, advertised as a performance product, that replaces the rubber with a harder substance (I do not remember what) and the inner sleave of those bushes rotate inside them. Thus the inner sleave is clamped as with the rubber bush but the rest of the bush rotates on this sleave. They provide special grease to help this process. In Australia (where I reside) they are common in old restored cars as you cannot buy the correct rubber replacement. Do not know if the US uses them?
Unfortunately, in my opinion there is a down side of these bushes and I would recommend that anybody that uses them thinks very hard about what the original designer of their car intended the rubber bush to do, i.e:
1. These bushes are much harder than the rubber and thus in some cases will restrict suspension movement, and make the car not handle the bumps as well. This maybe okay on the race track but not bumpy Sydney roads.
For example they would be very bad in Tom's rear suspension as it would effective lock the axle, and stop the axle pivoting when only one side goes over a bump, thus making the whole car twist.
2. Because they are designed to rotate around the inner sleave I have, on my own race car, had cases where they worked the bolt loose!!!!, naturally causing very strange handling. This would be extremely dangerous on a road car, as it might go unfound. You need to lock wire the suspension bolts if you think this might happen.
I think the only place I would use them would be for leaf spring eye bushes, as the leaf spring is designed to twist anyway.
Anyway I would be interested to hear if this sort of product is sold in the US or England, as I think the product mis-understands that suspension links are supposed to be able to move freely (i.e. think of the race car rose joint) and that in passenger car design there is a major compromise that means that the bushes have to flex in more than one direction.
Looking forward to hearing the video of start up once the diff is sorted, Tom.
This site has really helped my enthusiasim with my own restoration.
Pete
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Tom
Hi Peter,
This conversation seems to be going on two threads, this one, and "trailing arm Bushes!"
You have a good point of upsetting the balance of the bushings when considering the replacement of this bushing if it comes to it! I was thinking about replacing the one bushing with a polyurethane bushing that is machined with the old sleeves inside, but having one bushing act differently than the rubber bushings under load may cause some weird handling. Getting that stuck bolt and preserving the original bushing sounds like a better idea.
I know that when polyurethane bushings were first introduced in the 80s, too hard of a compound was used, and it caused more problems in the handling of older cars than it helped. Manufacturers are now making much softer compounds, but choosing which ones is really up to the driver. The poly bushings on the locating device on your Alfa Sud should not limit vertical suspension movement unless they are tighented too much. The poly bushings should pivot freely, allowing the springs to take on the vertical movement of the car. Is my logic right?
This whole suspension tuning thing is pretty complicated, and is very hard to give definitive answers. One set-up may work for one driver, and be totally wrong for another driver. F-1 teams spend countless hours testing with professional drivers with professional feedback to try and get it right, but still manage to lose races. Us mere mortals have even less to work with!
Tom  
Hi Peter,
This conversation seems to be going on two threads, this one, and "trailing arm Bushes!"
You have a good point of upsetting the balance of the bushings when considering the replacement of this bushing if it comes to it! I was thinking about replacing the one bushing with a polyurethane bushing that is machined with the old sleeves inside, but having one bushing act differently than the rubber bushings under load may cause some weird handling. Getting that stuck bolt and preserving the original bushing sounds like a better idea.
I know that when polyurethane bushings were first introduced in the 80s, too hard of a compound was used, and it caused more problems in the handling of older cars than it helped. Manufacturers are now making much softer compounds, but choosing which ones is really up to the driver. The poly bushings on the locating device on your Alfa Sud should not limit vertical suspension movement unless they are tighented too much. The poly bushings should pivot freely, allowing the springs to take on the vertical movement of the car. Is my logic right?
This whole suspension tuning thing is pretty complicated, and is very hard to give definitive answers. One set-up may work for one driver, and be totally wrong for another driver. F-1 teams spend countless hours testing with professional drivers with professional feedback to try and get it right, but still manage to lose races. Us mere mortals have even less to work with!
Tom  
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Tom
Hi Peter,
This conversation seems to be going on two threads, this one, and "trailing arm Bushes!"
You have a good point of upsetting the balance of the bushings when considering the replacement of this bushing if it comes to it! I was thinking about replacing the one bushing with a polyurethane bushing that is machined with the old sleeves inside, but having one bushing act differently than the rubber bushings under load may cause some weird handling. Getting that stuck bolt and preserving the original bushing sounds like a better idea.
I know that when polyurethane bushings were first introduced in the 80s, too hard of a compound was used, and it caused more problems in the handling of older cars than it helped. Manufacturers are now making much softer compounds, but choosing which ones is really up to the driver. The poly bushings on the locating device on your Alfa Sud should not limit vertical suspension movement unless they are tighented too much. The poly bushings should pivot freely, allowing the springs to take on the vertical movement of the car. Is my logic right?
This whole suspension tuning thing is pretty complicated, and is very hard to give definitive answers. One set-up may work for one driver, and be totally wrong for another driver. F-1 teams spend countless hours testing with professional drivers with professional feedback to try and get it right, but still manage to lose races. Us mere mortals have even less to work with!
Tom  
Hi Peter,
This conversation seems to be going on two threads, this one, and "trailing arm Bushes!"
You have a good point of upsetting the balance of the bushings when considering the replacement of this bushing if it comes to it! I was thinking about replacing the one bushing with a polyurethane bushing that is machined with the old sleeves inside, but having one bushing act differently than the rubber bushings under load may cause some weird handling. Getting that stuck bolt and preserving the original bushing sounds like a better idea.
I know that when polyurethane bushings were first introduced in the 80s, too hard of a compound was used, and it caused more problems in the handling of older cars than it helped. Manufacturers are now making much softer compounds, but choosing which ones is really up to the driver. The poly bushings on the locating device on your Alfa Sud should not limit vertical suspension movement unless they are tighented too much. The poly bushings should pivot freely, allowing the springs to take on the vertical movement of the car. Is my logic right?
This whole suspension tuning thing is pretty complicated, and is very hard to give definitive answers. One set-up may work for one driver, and be totally wrong for another driver. F-1 teams spend countless hours testing with professional drivers with professional feedback to try and get it right, but still manage to lose races. Us mere mortals have even less to work with!
Tom  
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Peter Skudder
Tom,
That is interesting as I would be talking about the 80's, so if they are softer now then they are going in the right direction. Manufacturers have to make big compromises but they have hugh R&D budgets and engineering staff so usually get it close to right. This comment will probably cause a few replies ... but until I can understand what the original intention of a part was I never think of modifying what the designer produced. He had alot more information than I have, and that is what my engineering training taught me.
You are 100% right that the bushes should pivot freely and let the spring and shock look after the vertical movement.
The Alfa Sud rear suspension does cause a little bit of a fight between the bushes if, for example, one rear wheel went into a hole.
Some of the bushes would not only have to pivot but would also have to compress which is where the too harder polyurethane upset the balance. This is probably a weakness in design that is okay for road but not for the race track, as you could never rose joint the standard design of an Alfa Sud rear suspension. It would not allow the body to roll versus the rear axle at all.
It is a very interesting subject, that can consume less money and provide more performance gain than purely searching for that extra horse. Unfortunately motors are just too all consuming for some ...
Pete
Tom,
That is interesting as I would be talking about the 80's, so if they are softer now then they are going in the right direction. Manufacturers have to make big compromises but they have hugh R&D budgets and engineering staff so usually get it close to right. This comment will probably cause a few replies ... but until I can understand what the original intention of a part was I never think of modifying what the designer produced. He had alot more information than I have, and that is what my engineering training taught me.
You are 100% right that the bushes should pivot freely and let the spring and shock look after the vertical movement.
The Alfa Sud rear suspension does cause a little bit of a fight between the bushes if, for example, one rear wheel went into a hole.
Some of the bushes would not only have to pivot but would also have to compress which is where the too harder polyurethane upset the balance. This is probably a weakness in design that is okay for road but not for the race track, as you could never rose joint the standard design of an Alfa Sud rear suspension. It would not allow the body to roll versus the rear axle at all.
It is a very interesting subject, that can consume less money and provide more performance gain than purely searching for that extra horse. Unfortunately motors are just too all consuming for some ...
Pete
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Peter Skudder
Tom,
That is interesting as I would be talking about the 80's, so if they are softer now then they are going in the right direction. Manufacturers have to make big compromises but they have hugh R&D budgets and engineering staff so usually get it close to right. This comment will probably cause a few replies ... but until I can understand what the original intention of a part was I never think of modifying what the designer produced. He had alot more information than I have, and that is what my engineering training taught me.
You are 100% right that the bushes should pivot freely and let the spring and shock look after the vertical movement.
The Alfa Sud rear suspension does cause a little bit of a fight between the bushes if, for example, one rear wheel went into a hole.
Some of the bushes would not only have to pivot but would also have to compress which is where the too harder polyurethane upset the balance. This is probably a weakness in design that is okay for road but not for the race track, as you could never rose joint the standard design of an Alfa Sud rear suspension. It would not allow the body to roll versus the rear axle at all.
It is a very interesting subject, that can consume less money and provide more performance gain than purely searching for that extra horse. Unfortunately motors are just too all consuming for some ...
Pete
Tom,
That is interesting as I would be talking about the 80's, so if they are softer now then they are going in the right direction. Manufacturers have to make big compromises but they have hugh R&D budgets and engineering staff so usually get it close to right. This comment will probably cause a few replies ... but until I can understand what the original intention of a part was I never think of modifying what the designer produced. He had alot more information than I have, and that is what my engineering training taught me.
You are 100% right that the bushes should pivot freely and let the spring and shock look after the vertical movement.
The Alfa Sud rear suspension does cause a little bit of a fight between the bushes if, for example, one rear wheel went into a hole.
Some of the bushes would not only have to pivot but would also have to compress which is where the too harder polyurethane upset the balance. This is probably a weakness in design that is okay for road but not for the race track, as you could never rose joint the standard design of an Alfa Sud rear suspension. It would not allow the body to roll versus the rear axle at all.
It is a very interesting subject, that can consume less money and provide more performance gain than purely searching for that extra horse. Unfortunately motors are just too all consuming for some ...
Pete
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Tom
Hi Pete,
The one thing I learned in my brief, but exciting racing career (extreeme exageration) is the most that can be gained (time shaved off laps) can be found in improving the driver, not the car, but we always like measurable return for our money! In other words, it's much easier to blame equipment than a driver! Guys will spend thousands of dollars building hot motors, and buying $$ parts for their cars, but spend very little time learning how to be better drivers. Without a good driver capable of not only driving the car, but also able to tune the car, all the technology is useless!
A good example is when Shumacher crashed halfway through the F-1 season a few years back. Irvine managed to do alright with a car tuned by Michael, but the longer Michael was out of communication with the engineers, the cars got worse and worse on the track. Not being able to communicate the needs of the driver to improve a car's performance makes all the money in the world useless. I hear too many guys brag about how their cars are better because they installed "so and so," but do they really know, or are they just repeating what the salesman said?
Production vehicles are always designed with compromise. A good track car makes for a horrible street car. One of the most absurd request is some guy who wants "a race car for the street!" Technology can come very close to providing this request through better shock valving, variable rate springs, and the like, but it's still a compromise!
Tom
Hi Pete,
The one thing I learned in my brief, but exciting racing career (extreeme exageration) is the most that can be gained (time shaved off laps) can be found in improving the driver, not the car, but we always like measurable return for our money! In other words, it's much easier to blame equipment than a driver! Guys will spend thousands of dollars building hot motors, and buying $$ parts for their cars, but spend very little time learning how to be better drivers. Without a good driver capable of not only driving the car, but also able to tune the car, all the technology is useless!
A good example is when Shumacher crashed halfway through the F-1 season a few years back. Irvine managed to do alright with a car tuned by Michael, but the longer Michael was out of communication with the engineers, the cars got worse and worse on the track. Not being able to communicate the needs of the driver to improve a car's performance makes all the money in the world useless. I hear too many guys brag about how their cars are better because they installed "so and so," but do they really know, or are they just repeating what the salesman said?
Production vehicles are always designed with compromise. A good track car makes for a horrible street car. One of the most absurd request is some guy who wants "a race car for the street!" Technology can come very close to providing this request through better shock valving, variable rate springs, and the like, but it's still a compromise!
Tom
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Tom
Hi Pete,
The one thing I learned in my brief, but exciting racing career (extreeme exageration) is the most that can be gained (time shaved off laps) can be found in improving the driver, not the car, but we always like measurable return for our money! In other words, it's much easier to blame equipment than a driver! Guys will spend thousands of dollars building hot motors, and buying $$ parts for their cars, but spend very little time learning how to be better drivers. Without a good driver capable of not only driving the car, but also able to tune the car, all the technology is useless!
A good example is when Shumacher crashed halfway through the F-1 season a few years back. Irvine managed to do alright with a car tuned by Michael, but the longer Michael was out of communication with the engineers, the cars got worse and worse on the track. Not being able to communicate the needs of the driver to improve a car's performance makes all the money in the world useless. I hear too many guys brag about how their cars are better because they installed "so and so," but do they really know, or are they just repeating what the salesman said?
Production vehicles are always designed with compromise. A good track car makes for a horrible street car. One of the most absurd request is some guy who wants "a race car for the street!" Technology can come very close to providing this request through better shock valving, variable rate springs, and the like, but it's still a compromise!
Tom
Hi Pete,
The one thing I learned in my brief, but exciting racing career (extreeme exageration) is the most that can be gained (time shaved off laps) can be found in improving the driver, not the car, but we always like measurable return for our money! In other words, it's much easier to blame equipment than a driver! Guys will spend thousands of dollars building hot motors, and buying $$ parts for their cars, but spend very little time learning how to be better drivers. Without a good driver capable of not only driving the car, but also able to tune the car, all the technology is useless!
A good example is when Shumacher crashed halfway through the F-1 season a few years back. Irvine managed to do alright with a car tuned by Michael, but the longer Michael was out of communication with the engineers, the cars got worse and worse on the track. Not being able to communicate the needs of the driver to improve a car's performance makes all the money in the world useless. I hear too many guys brag about how their cars are better because they installed "so and so," but do they really know, or are they just repeating what the salesman said?
Production vehicles are always designed with compromise. A good track car makes for a horrible street car. One of the most absurd request is some guy who wants "a race car for the street!" Technology can come very close to providing this request through better shock valving, variable rate springs, and the like, but it's still a compromise!
Tom
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Peter Skudder
Tom,
You are so right. I have raced against guys in amature club racing that, er, hum, did not understand the basics of car dynamics and thus did not make the most of what they had. One guy spent a small (maybe large?) fortune on improving his car, all this did was make it more obvious that the problem was with the driver. Eventually he sold the car and the new owner, a very experienced driver smashed the lap record!, first time out.
Ofcourse as we are all human and we like to be able to brag that our recent $1000 purchase made a positive difference ... even if it really just gave the ego a boost
.
Talking about the 'race car for the street', I have followed these very low modern hatch back things that have been highly modified, and watched it hit the bumps hard and bounce all over the road ... and er, just wondered, er, how the new girl friend in the passenger seat is supposed to be impressed by that sort of stuff. As always there is a hugh following for all show or looks and no or pretend go.
I must be too old now, but I cannot understand why somebody would race prepare a motor at huge cost to drive around the streets and simply waste all that beautiful engineering. This is why I like Alfas, as they are a good compromise for the road and my age.
As I have said before I would like to add a 365GT4 to my garage as I would like to have the pleasure of winding out a 12 cylinder Ferrari on an early weekend morning ... and cost prohibit the glory models. But the specs show that the 365GT4 has the right stuff. Working on this plan ...
Pete
Tom,
You are so right. I have raced against guys in amature club racing that, er, hum, did not understand the basics of car dynamics and thus did not make the most of what they had. One guy spent a small (maybe large?) fortune on improving his car, all this did was make it more obvious that the problem was with the driver. Eventually he sold the car and the new owner, a very experienced driver smashed the lap record!, first time out.
Ofcourse as we are all human and we like to be able to brag that our recent $1000 purchase made a positive difference ... even if it really just gave the ego a boost
.Talking about the 'race car for the street', I have followed these very low modern hatch back things that have been highly modified, and watched it hit the bumps hard and bounce all over the road ... and er, just wondered, er, how the new girl friend in the passenger seat is supposed to be impressed by that sort of stuff. As always there is a hugh following for all show or looks and no or pretend go.
I must be too old now, but I cannot understand why somebody would race prepare a motor at huge cost to drive around the streets and simply waste all that beautiful engineering. This is why I like Alfas, as they are a good compromise for the road and my age.
As I have said before I would like to add a 365GT4 to my garage as I would like to have the pleasure of winding out a 12 cylinder Ferrari on an early weekend morning ... and cost prohibit the glory models. But the specs show that the 365GT4 has the right stuff. Working on this plan ...
Pete
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by Peter Skudder
Tom,
You are so right. I have raced against guys in amature club racing that, er, hum, did not understand the basics of car dynamics and thus did not make the most of what they had. One guy spent a small (maybe large?) fortune on improving his car, all this did was make it more obvious that the problem was with the driver. Eventually he sold the car and the new owner, a very experienced driver smashed the lap record!, first time out.
Ofcourse as we are all human and we like to be able to brag that our recent $1000 purchase made a positive difference ... even if it really just gave the ego a boost.
Talking about the 'race car for the street', I have followed these very low modern hatch back things that have been highly modified, and watched it hit the bumps hard and bounce all over the road ... and er, just wondered, er, how the new girl friend in the passenger seat is supposed to be impressed by that sort of stuff. As always there is a hugh following for all show or looks and no or pretend go.
I must be too old now, but I cannot understand why somebody would race prepare a motor at huge cost to drive around the streets and simply waste all that beautiful engineering. This is why I like Alfas, as they are a good compromise for the road and my age.
As I have said before I would like to add a 365GT4 to my garage as I would like to have the pleasure of winding out a 12 cylinder Ferrari on an early weekend morning ... and cost prohibit the glory models. But the specs show that the 365GT4 has the right stuff. Working on this plan ...
Pete
Tom,
You are so right. I have raced against guys in amature club racing that, er, hum, did not understand the basics of car dynamics and thus did not make the most of what they had. One guy spent a small (maybe large?) fortune on improving his car, all this did was make it more obvious that the problem was with the driver. Eventually he sold the car and the new owner, a very experienced driver smashed the lap record!, first time out.
Ofcourse as we are all human and we like to be able to brag that our recent $1000 purchase made a positive difference ... even if it really just gave the ego a boost
.Talking about the 'race car for the street', I have followed these very low modern hatch back things that have been highly modified, and watched it hit the bumps hard and bounce all over the road ... and er, just wondered, er, how the new girl friend in the passenger seat is supposed to be impressed by that sort of stuff. As always there is a hugh following for all show or looks and no or pretend go.
I must be too old now, but I cannot understand why somebody would race prepare a motor at huge cost to drive around the streets and simply waste all that beautiful engineering. This is why I like Alfas, as they are a good compromise for the road and my age.
As I have said before I would like to add a 365GT4 to my garage as I would like to have the pleasure of winding out a 12 cylinder Ferrari on an early weekend morning ... and cost prohibit the glory models. But the specs show that the 365GT4 has the right stuff. Working on this plan ...
Pete
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by gtsteveb
I'm a little confused regarding the previous followups by Peter. In your first post you imply that the movement in the link rods is from the twist-flexing of the bushing instead of pivoting on the inner sleave rotating on the bolt shaft. If that were the case, it would be next to impossible to ballance the set up or rotational tension on all of the links. That is what spring rates and shock dampening take care of. The links should pivot in both directions without any binding action. I believe this is what you elude to in your second post. With the bolts frozen to the inner sleave, the full range of movement is highly compromised.
With regards to the 'Fast n Furious' set ups I've seen out on the roads, I guess they figure that the lower they set up their cars and the bigger the can tip, must equate to a really fast car. Unfortunately I've read many a newspaper artical that describes the results of a "street race" where one of them ends up rolling through a block wall and into someones back yard. The lowering jobs done on most of these cars usually was done by eliminating the upper range of suspension travel. They end up 'bouncing' themselves out of control at a speed that usually means death. All for the sake of looks.
Understanding suspension setup before driving a car fast is essential in knowing what to predict in a cars handling tendencies as well as to match individual driving style.
I'm a little confused regarding the previous followups by Peter. In your first post you imply that the movement in the link rods is from the twist-flexing of the bushing instead of pivoting on the inner sleave rotating on the bolt shaft. If that were the case, it would be next to impossible to ballance the set up or rotational tension on all of the links. That is what spring rates and shock dampening take care of. The links should pivot in both directions without any binding action. I believe this is what you elude to in your second post. With the bolts frozen to the inner sleave, the full range of movement is highly compromised.
With regards to the 'Fast n Furious' set ups I've seen out on the roads, I guess they figure that the lower they set up their cars and the bigger the can tip, must equate to a really fast car. Unfortunately I've read many a newspaper artical that describes the results of a "street race" where one of them ends up rolling through a block wall and into someones back yard. The lowering jobs done on most of these cars usually was done by eliminating the upper range of suspension travel. They end up 'bouncing' themselves out of control at a speed that usually means death. All for the sake of looks.
Understanding suspension setup before driving a car fast is essential in knowing what to predict in a cars handling tendencies as well as to match individual driving style.
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by gtsteveb
I'm a little confused regarding the previous followups by Peter. In your first post you imply that the movement in the link rods is from the twist-flexing of the bushing instead of pivoting on the inner sleave rotating on the bolt shaft. If that were the case, it would be next to impossible to ballance the set up or rotational tension on all of the links. That is what spring rates and shock dampening take care of. The links should pivot in both directions without any binding action. I believe this is what you elude to in your second post. With the bolts frozen to the inner sleave, the full range of movement is highly compromised.
With regards to the 'Fast n Furious' set ups I've seen out on the roads, I guess they figure that the lower they set up their cars and the bigger the can tip, must equate to a really fast car. Unfortunately I've read many a newspaper artical that describes the results of a "street race" where one of them ends up rolling through a block wall and into someones back yard. The lowering jobs done on most of these cars usually was done by eliminating the upper range of suspension travel. They end up 'bouncing' themselves out of control at a speed that usually means death. All for the sake of looks.
Understanding suspension setup before driving a car fast is essential in knowing what to predict in a cars handling tendencies as well as to match individual driving style.
I'm a little confused regarding the previous followups by Peter. In your first post you imply that the movement in the link rods is from the twist-flexing of the bushing instead of pivoting on the inner sleave rotating on the bolt shaft. If that were the case, it would be next to impossible to ballance the set up or rotational tension on all of the links. That is what spring rates and shock dampening take care of. The links should pivot in both directions without any binding action. I believe this is what you elude to in your second post. With the bolts frozen to the inner sleave, the full range of movement is highly compromised.
With regards to the 'Fast n Furious' set ups I've seen out on the roads, I guess they figure that the lower they set up their cars and the bigger the can tip, must equate to a really fast car. Unfortunately I've read many a newspaper artical that describes the results of a "street race" where one of them ends up rolling through a block wall and into someones back yard. The lowering jobs done on most of these cars usually was done by eliminating the upper range of suspension travel. They end up 'bouncing' themselves out of control at a speed that usually means death. All for the sake of looks.
Understanding suspension setup before driving a car fast is essential in knowing what to predict in a cars handling tendencies as well as to match individual driving style.
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by gtsteveb
I see the serrations on the inner sleave on one side. Do they appear on both sides of the bushing sleaves and brackets? If so, then I would assume then that the links have to be tightened up at a certain angle (similar to how a 911 rear suspension is set up). How much range of motion do the links have? I find it odd that these bushings are being used as torsional devices. In my previous post I stated that the link rods are typically used to produce a certain range of motion and that the dampening and loads are maintained by the shocks and springs. Let me know so that I can check my rear suspension when I take it apart to check for this characteristic.
Thanks
Steve
I see the serrations on the inner sleave on one side. Do they appear on both sides of the bushing sleaves and brackets? If so, then I would assume then that the links have to be tightened up at a certain angle (similar to how a 911 rear suspension is set up). How much range of motion do the links have? I find it odd that these bushings are being used as torsional devices. In my previous post I stated that the link rods are typically used to produce a certain range of motion and that the dampening and loads are maintained by the shocks and springs. Let me know so that I can check my rear suspension when I take it apart to check for this characteristic.
Thanks
Steve
Re: 250th Journal Entry!
Posted by gtsteveb
I see the serrations on the inner sleave on one side. Do they appear on both sides of the bushing sleaves and brackets? If so, then I would assume then that the links have to be tightened up at a certain angle (similar to how a 911 rear suspension is set up). How much range of motion do the links have? I find it odd that these bushings are being used as torsional devices. In my previous post I stated that the link rods are typically used to produce a certain range of motion and that the dampening and loads are maintained by the shocks and springs. Let me know so that I can check my rear suspension when I take it apart to check for this characteristic.
Thanks
Steve
I see the serrations on the inner sleave on one side. Do they appear on both sides of the bushing sleaves and brackets? If so, then I would assume then that the links have to be tightened up at a certain angle (similar to how a 911 rear suspension is set up). How much range of motion do the links have? I find it odd that these bushings are being used as torsional devices. In my previous post I stated that the link rods are typically used to produce a certain range of motion and that the dampening and loads are maintained by the shocks and springs. Let me know so that I can check my rear suspension when I take it apart to check for this characteristic.
Thanks
Steve